Pak Hok Pai Sparring

[JamesC]

Tournament settings. I think it is interesting how well they are able to keep their structure and deliver some textbook blows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfpZj1ly7TM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWH8z37hGlI&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYL0qXCoFiE&NR=1

The last one looks like the guy is a little less experienced, but still pretty good.

[Mulong]

Not certain why the last individual was good per se?

Indeed, he did use his beibaihequan; personally it was a bit stiff for my taste, but he kept his focus which helped a lot, especially that his opponent wasn't sure how to react to an unorthodox completive sparring method.

At the end it is hard to compare orthodox and contemporary sparring, because both have their merits and faults.

[Violent Designs]

no offense but leaving your arms down at your sides against any competent fighter is suicide, unless you just outskill them in a retarded way.

[Mulong]

A simple question we can ask ourselves, should we take classical posture totally literal?

In this case we see an individual, who did which I give credit, because it isn't easy to go against the grain, i.e., the norm of completive sparring; however, an experience completive fighter knows so well that orthodox/classical theories/posture don't translate so well within the ring, because they were designed for self-defense or tactical fighting not for the ring.

Indeed orthodox techniques can confused an inexperience competitor, but an experience fighter is another story.

However, I still give kudos to those guys for upholding those classical notions in contemporary ring, even though I wouldn't take that path personality.

On a side note this reminded me of first generation of Nanjing Guoshu practitioners, who started to alter their classical theories/postures to fit into a contemporary setting. It is interesting how they adjusted their knowledge with western boxing; some were a bit comical and others created a good fusion.

[lkfmdc]

The obvious problem here is, they are doing these things in POINT FIGHTING where you aren't supposed to be hitting the head even!

Let them take it to a venue where it is full contact and the other guy will be HITTING BACK

[hskwarrior]

I used to see White Crane students fighting with one hand out in front and one hand stretched out behind them. But when you focus on just ONE thing like hitting with a Kwa Cup, then you are setting yourself up for failure.

The guy in this video certainly had a plan, but not exactly sure if it would be effective in the streets or in the ring. for that kind of tournament it would but they don't allow head shots which is strange cause they make them wear gloves and head gear.

[Mulong]

They were able to get away with those orthodox methods because it was light contact/point sparring venue; full-contact would have been different.

Actually disciplines like cailifoquan adapts well to the ring. Through out the years I have seen good cailifoquan fighters in light and full contact matches using effectively their classical techniques, but classical beibaihequan is another story.

[darkie1973]

Not translating the poem is what we got going on here. The fighter in question here,... Mario,... is a 'martial' cousin of mine,.. .that is to say, we come from the same lineage; however, like most things chinese (art of war,.... medical text,..... cook books,... even friggin sex manuals,) you gotta translate the poem and honestly ask yourself,... what is it really trying to tell me, without all the fluff. Tibetan White Crane, like Choi Li Fut, lends itself very well to the ring or the street,.... if you know what the hell your doing. Sadly,... most don't. But then,... my school has been accused of doing Pak Hok incorrectly by some of our sister schools,.... until they saw us in the ring. Fight Theorist tend to lose their fighting theories real fast when they get punched in the mouth,...

[ginosifu]

What lessons can be learned here? Can we or should we teach style based fighting techniques? Or should we just give up traditional Chinese Kung Fu and just brawl like the most of the modern world?

Style based fighting techniques are harder to perfect and harder to get off in a real fighting situation. But should we just club a guy with a round kick to the thigh just because it's easier? This reduce the need for TCMA and increase the amount of what I call "Brawlers". Brawling is just fighting without any skill behind the techniques

I think the current Sifu and Sigung that are promoting tournaments should maybe think about having more style based fighting divisions to increase or promote more younger fighters to try out their "Style". A few years back the Mantis guys had their symposium at my school and I was there listening to there ideas. They ideas of style based techniques would score points had merit. However nothing has come of it yet but, I think this is a good start.

ginosifu

[Frost]

What lessons can be learned here? Can we or should we teach style based fighting techniques? Or should we just give up traditional Chinese Kung Fu and just brawl like the most of the modern world?

Style based fighting techniques are harder to perfect and harder to get off in a real fighting situation. But should we just club a guy with a round kick to the thigh just because it's easier? This reduce the need for TCMA and increase the amount of what I call "Brawlers". Brawling is just fighting without any skill behind the techniques

I think the current Sifu and Sigung that are promoting tournaments should maybe think about having more style based fighting divisions to increase or promote more younger fighters to try out their "Style". A few years back the Mantis guys had their symposium at my school and I was there listening to there ideas. They ideas of style based techniques would score points had merit. However nothing has come of it yet but, I think this is a good start.

ginosifu

So you are saying that Thai boxing, is not skilful or as skilful as Chinese arts, and isn’t a style of fighting but simply brawling with no skill invloved?

[ginosifu]

So you are saying that Thai boxing, is not skilful or as skilful as Chinese arts, and isn’t a style of fighting but simply brawling with no skill invloved?

You need to read a bit more into it there Frost. The problem is that many modern people just go to a gym and punch the heavy bag and do round kicks on Thai Pads. This is not a style, just whacking stuff is brawling.

Muay Thai is a bonified style. There is nothing wrong any style. What I am saying is that we need to make a venue for TCMA that is geared for TCMA. MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring competition. That's why they stick to their venue. If you were say to them (MMA fighter) you can only score points and win rounds for stylized techniques, how do you think they would fair?

ginosifu

[Frost]

TCMA had a venue, sanda which I know you did well in so what’s the problem with that?

Or is your argument that TCMA can only win in point sparring where style wins out over effectiveness? I assume you don’t mean that because you have produced guys that have fought full contact so again I am having trouble here understanding you

Initially MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring contest because they wouldn’t see the point in it, stopping when you have hit your opponent or getting told off for hitting to hard…that’s difficult to understand as a rule set no?

If they got over that they would probably do ok, most guys are made to light spar and do technique work all the time its not all wailing on the heavy bag and each other

Styles like Thai boxing and boxing manage to look ok in the MMA environment and exactly like they are trained in the gym, what’s stopping TCMA doing the same in that arena

[lkfmdc]

MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring competition. That's why they stick to their venue.

MMA people don't do point sparring for the same reason adults don't go to the playground, get in the sandbox and play childhood games

How exactly are you testing "martial art" in a non contact environment, with no head punches, no clinching, no sweeping, no throwing and where they frequently break the action after ONE technique

[lkfmdc]

The idea of 'style" is such a ..... well, let's just say HOW do you test "style"

I had this conversation with an AAU Chinese martial art guy over 20 years ago, so competitor A get punched, kicked and didn't land a single technique but he "wins" because he was trying to look more like Hung ga? How exactly does that work?

IE if you really think your TMA is the better fighting style, go into full contact and PROVE IT....

When we read about famous Chinese masters in challenges, like Chang Dung Sheng or the founder of the Ching Wu, we don't hear about how they put up pre conditions or made excuses. They just fought

Why has TCMA forgotten this?

[ginosifu]

TCMA had a venue, sanda which I know you did well in so what’s the problem with that?

Or is your argument that TCMA can only win in point sparring where style wins out over effectiveness? I assume you don’t mean that because you have produced guys that have fought full contact so again I am having trouble here understanding you

Initially MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring contest because they wouldn’t see the point in it, stopping when you have hit your opponent or getting told off for hitting to hard…that’s difficult to understand as a rule set no?

If they got over that they would probably do ok, most guys are made to light spar and do technique work all the time its not all wailing on the heavy bag and each other

Styles like Thai boxing and boxing manage to look ok in the MMA environment and exactly like they are trained in the gym, what’s stopping TCMA doing the same in that arena

Again you miss the point. I am not talking about San Da, that is a different sport all together. I am talking about Monkey style or White Crane or Eagle Claw or Hung Gar style being able to use their techniques in the ring. This all about the "Venue". If you were to take any MMA fighter who only practices for the Octagon and put him in a point sparring Venue, he will LOSE. It's not about whether a MMA fighter will enter such an event, but more about the fact he is not prepared for that venue. TCMA fighters are not prepared for the Octagon just like a MMA fighter is not prepared for a sport stick fighting competition. These are 2 seperate types of events. If you change the rules, someone will have an advantage. If there are no rules then it is equal.

I think that if we encourage more stylized TCMA events we might see more skillful stylized fighting.

ginosifu

Frost try not to be so biast and look things from a different perspective. I know we are talking about sporting events but look any style whether it be MMA or TCMA, skillful fighters are skillful fighters, does not matter what system they do. What we see on TV are just a handful of gifted athletes, most average people will never do that. I sent some of my "Gifted athletes into the Cage and they won. If you would take thosesame MMA gifted athletes and put them into any TCMA school, they would be gifted TCMA guys just the same.

ginosifu