Cross Training vs. Style Evolution

[Lucas]

pan qingfu is an example of traditional meets contemporary.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The idea that punching while using a form DECREASES ones ability is a bit of a silly thought. While I understand you might think that forms practice is less effective training than say mitt practice, the idea expressed here I find a little baffling. Forms practice, when done properly is excellent training for stability and movement as well as communicating some basic theory regarding fighting tactics. Additionally, the idea that "punching air" is less effective than punching bags or mitts is preposterous. Find me a boxer or MMA of champion-level caliber that doesn't routinely train "shadow boxing" of some kind. No puncher lands 100% of all their punches. All real fighters train "punching air" as well as striking some actual surface.

Forms have their place, shadow boxing has it's place, bag work and mitt work and other resitance training has it's place. Yes, all real fighters do punch air and shadow box, they also do lots of resistance training I talked about. Do you see boxers or MMAers doing forms? You stated that you trained boxing, ever do a form in boxing? Shadow boxing and forms are not the same thing. A form is a set of movements done in exactly the same manner with a set of defensive and offensive principles in play. Shadow boxing is a freestyle set of techniques that one does without a pre planned action, but more so a reaction to what your mind and body are telling you to do.

I understand your logic, but you have obviously mistaken mine. Yes, forms and shadow boxing certainly have their place, and I did not infer that they did not, but those alone are not good enough training tools to make a well rounded martial artist, that you can quote me on.

[bawang]

That's the problem. Not enough detail such as how to change a groin punch into a throw, what throw to change into it.

the book uses code words and is 500 years old. if you be honest and say you dont understand, i will explain it to you.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think the big problem in comparing TCMA training results with boxing results,or more accurately MMA results, is that often MMA fighters train for far greater hours. Personally, I believe that's because MMA practitioners are often more violent and aggressive and are actually training for an actual fight... because they are more likely to start a fight. Perhaps I'm a bit biased based upon seeing enough MMA trained d-bags picking bar fights whenever there is a PPV match at the local watering hole. I've not ever seen someone start a Kung Fu fight in person.

Complete and utter bull sh**it!! Most boxers and MMA fighters who are serious about their training you won't find out in a bar starting sh**it, they have better things to do, like training.

Just because you go to a bar and get picked on by some TapOut wearing douchebag who has probably never stepped foot into any martial arts gym in his life does not constitute making a sweeping generalization about a whole group, kind of like me saying all Kung Fu guys are limp wristed, hippy passifists who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Also, how does one start a Kung Fu fight?? Does one person jump down in bow and arrow and another in horse stance and begin reenacting a Shaw Bros. film.

[SPJ]

evolution to add "new" or branch out.

de evolution to return to root, source or original.

both happen at any single time.

for example, you may trace chen tai ji to chen fa ke (new frame)


in comparison to chen fa ke's father.

you may trace yang tai chi back to yang lu chan.

or pre yang chen chang xing.

something new

something old

something borrowed

something blue

--

ok

I am going to see the movie starred by kate hudson

why

I had crush for her mom, goldie hawn in 1970s.

http://classictvbeauties.com/goldiehawn.html

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qlMqqc7YdE

the movie.

[SPJ]

my point is that if something is borrowed from other style

we may return it or restore it back to original state, too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The idea that punching while using a form DECREASES ones ability is a bit of a silly thought. While I understand you might think that forms practice is less effective training than say mitt practice, the idea expressed here I find a little baffling. Forms practice, when done properly is excellent training for stability and movement as well as communicating some basic theory regarding fighting tactics. Additionally, the idea that "punching air" is less effective than punching bags or mitts is preposterous. Find me a boxer or MMA of champion-level caliber that doesn't routinely train "shadow boxing" of some kind. No puncher lands 100% of all their punches. All real fighters train "punching air" as well as striking some actual surface.

This is quite incorrect.
Lets forget the shadow boxing thing for a moment, shadow boxing is NOT forms NOR is it designed to develop speed, power or anything like that.

Striking into the air does in fact dsecrease muscle output because of how the body truly works, with no resistence to stop the accelration of the strike the body will do that itself, thus putting on the braks so to speak on any strike and the body will also NOT accelerate to the speed that it can ( peak acceleration) because it KNOWS there is no target to "stop it".
The also leads to incorrect follow through or even the absence of it.
On top of that, striking the air with no resistence doe snot develop the correct ability to throw combinations since the strikes are not actually hitting anything they do not develop the ability to hit "through" the combinations.
Add to that the fact that the structure is NOT being tested since there is no opposing force that is meeting the strikes - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction- the strikes structure is not only NOT being tested or developed, the body is never learning the ability to withstand the recoil of impact.
I could go one but the truth be it said that since EVERY MA actually advocates hitting something to develop power, I have no idea where you would get such a preposterous view of the biomechanics of striking.

[evrchangingfist]

That's not true IMO. Let's take the wrestling "single leg" for example. How do you shoot in so your opponent cannot kick you, knee you, elbow you, or punch you? If you bite your shin into your oppponent's front leg, he can't kick you or knee you at that moment. If you build arm bridges by separating your opponent's arms from inside out, he cannot elbow you or punch you at that moment.(but he can do a over or under hook) Does this kind of entering strategy exist in western wrestling? I don'tr think so because it's a sport(sport and street are to different things). Since in the sport environment, your opponent is not allowed to hit you when you shoot.(yes he can) Does this entering strategy exist in TCMA? I don't think so either. For some unknown reason our ancestor just didn't do a good job in the area of kick, punch, lock, throw integration. The day that we can integrate the ground game into TCMA, we can then say that the TCMA will have no more room to evolve. Until then I'm still interesting to figure out how many different ways that I can use my kick and punch to set up my "hip throw" because those information is not available in both TCMA and foreign MA..

Research catch as catch can and bare knuckle boxing from a hundred years ago you will see integration or maybe Pankration from 2000 years ago WMA was not codified before then, any thing went kick punch lock throw ground fight oh and what about Chinese dog boxing this incorporates all components does it not and the modern Sanda of the Chinese Military or maybe Sambo or Systema of the Russians James Figg more than 200 hundred years ago was doing this in England research and lets not forget Jun Fan Lee and his conceptual idea of combining and integrating. Baritsu,Dans de rue savate Kick punch throw grapple Even in Wing Chun there was a bounty hunter that incorporated all components to subdue his catch.Cross training or evolution will not get you there alone strategy tactics and techniques will,If your intended focus is integration to be seamless and with out interruption this is how you must train,there are so many styles and techniques what fits with your base.what will flow with your intent and tactics.If you do not evolve your fight system just becomes a art to show and perform or for competition true combat is through experimentation with the odds not in your favor to see if what you are doing works.You practice against your style you can achieve great things in your system but maybe not from a trained or untrained adversary from another system or just a street thug .Sanda is on the right path and will become the answer to TCMA in the future what about the Chinese MMA league.These things are all around past present and soon to be future. TCMA or WMA or styles from any other region where designed to deal with adversary in there region or given area,martial arts is global now you can see it on you tube DVD's etc and any town you can find Martial systems from all over the world what happened to develop and over come.Or do we just show form and squabble over what style is best in TCMA or do some thing to grow and develop.

[Yao Sing]

Personally, I believe that's because MMA practitioners are often more violent and aggressive and are actually training for an actual fight... because they are more likely to start a fight. Perhaps I'm a bit biased based upon seeing enough MMA trained d-bags picking bar fights whenever there is a PPV match at the local watering hole. I've not ever seen someone start a Kung Fu fight in person.

You should have been around in the 70's when "Five Fingers of Death" and "Chinese Connection"were playing at the local drive-in. Going for popcorn during intermission was for fighters only.

[MasterKiller]

Personally, I believe that's because MMA practitioners are often more violent and aggressive and are actually training for an actual fight... because they are more likely to start a fight. Perhaps I'm a bit biased based upon seeing enough MMA trained d-bags picking bar fights whenever there is a PPV match at the local watering hole. I've not ever seen someone start a Kung Fu fight in person.

True dat! Check out these totally aggressive MMA douches!

And those shirts are totally f@ggy, too!

[David Jamieson]

Man, the stink of stupid is out of control in this big circle jerk of mma vs Kung Fu.

seriously people, wise up.
If you like your thing, good for you.
I like mine, it ain't the same as yours and I don't do what you do.

The end.

Your training is NOT better and neither is mine.
Both are just training.

period.

sweet lord, what is so dang difficult to understand about that?

[Drake]

Until someone here can stop a bullet with their teeth, you are really just subscribing to personal preference.

Like with BJJ. I know it, I see the value of it, and I see what they are getting at. I don't like it, though, no matter how much the Army makes me do it.

[SavvySavage]

True dat! Check out these totally aggressive MMA douches!

And those shirts are totally f@ggy, too!

Masterkiller,

Are you the hot blonde in the front? Lol. I want to train at that school. It's true for martial arts schools as it is for bars. Girls bring the guys in and with the guys come the money. If I was deciding between two schools of equal caliber curriculums I would go to the one with the hotter women in it or the one that puts out the strongest illusion of hotter women.

[BakShaolinEC]

Complete and utter bull sh**it!! Most boxers and MMA fighters who are serious about their training you won't find out in a bar starting sh**it, they have better things to do, like training.

Just because you go to a bar and get picked on by some TapOut wearing douchebag who has probably never stepped foot into any martial arts gym in his life does not constitute making a sweeping generalization about a whole group, kind of like me saying all Kung Fu guys are limp wristed, hippy passifists who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Also, how does one start a Kung Fu fight?? Does one person jump down in bow and arrow and another in horse stance and begin reenacting a Shaw Bros. film.

this is some funny sh*t but also so true. I know a couple MMA guys that don't even go to the bar anymore. infact mma changed their ways and they rather train then go out drinking.