Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

[mvbrown21]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

[Lee Chiang Po]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

[Vajramusti]

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good statement Lee.

joy

[anerlich]

My WC instructor had 37 pro kickboxing fights and over 100 amateur fights. He also won a "world invitational" KF championship in HK in 1982. This was a bit before video became mainstream.

His students have recently succeeded in MMA, continuous sparring, and BJJ competitions. There are vids, but they don't get posted on Youtube for keyboard warriors to snipe over. That is why most don't post their stuff.

Real fighting with WC doesn't closely resemble what you practice in the forms or what was shown in Ip Man 1 & 2.

Look for videos of Alan Orr's students, both in older posts on this forum and on the 'tube, you'll see some WC fighters succeeding in the ring. They may not look like how you expect WC fighters to look, though.

[Buddha_Fist]

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

It's not just specifically Ving Tsun, but rather all the schools that lost touch with the realities of confrontation. It's the schools that instead of spending a good amount of each training sessions on the heavy bag and sparring, get off at the "awesomeness" of useless Chi-Sao tricks, that like to dress in silky pajamas and organize "demo teams", that spend half of the training session talking about the importance of Chi instead of working on the precision of their punch, that claim useless authenticity without ever producing people capable to match up with an average Joe boxer, that by letting their students live in that fantasy world are straight-out lying to them and putting their lives in jeopardy by providing a false sense of security and skill, and that simply do not live up to the promise they are doing by advertising themselves as a "martial art".

MMA is the best thing that happened to martial arts in the last decade. It exposed the non-sense that was going on in many schools and served as a wake-up call. You will see in MMA many representatives of the methods that are known for being contact oriented (Muay Thai, boxing, some Karate, etc.) as they have continued being in touch with the realities of fighting and have continued to hone real skills. You only see a few representatives of other methods as the majority of them are simply not at the same level. One thing is to be top-dog in your own school or compared to the average non-trained Joe, but the current state of MMA and its successful competitors is a whooooole 'nother level, they are simply put "professionals". You won't have an idea of this unless you actually spend time sparring with somebody at that level.

Why dismiss video as evidence? Go back to the stone age? It's fine and dandy to have had "200 fights", but what level of opponents was this with? We are still largely living in the Fantasy-Fu era of unsupported claims. A healthy dose of skepticism and common sense puts an end to this. Don't take this wrong, I am not picking on you, but rather on the prevalent blind faith and parrot-like repeating of what sacrosanct Sifus tell their students...

[mvbrown21]

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

I understand what you're saying and I actually thought about that. A few things though. Wing Chun is the most popular form of 'practiced' gung fu in the world. It's not a small sect like some of the other styles you mentioned. There are more than enough guys that there 'should' be something by now. There are a few who have tried too, but failed miserably.

A few things for thought. I don't know about you but I've never met any MMA guys walking around on the street either. In fact, the only one's you'll run into regularly are boxers. Also, out of your 200 or so altercations, how many of them were actually trained, experienced fighters?

I don't deny WC effectiveness against the 'average' opponent. I said that in my original post. I think it's great for basic self-defense, used it in a few fights, and I enjoy practicing it immensely. So I'm not bashing WC. I questioning WC's ability against trained, experienced fighters. Is it against WC philosophy to compete? Why have the few who have competed essentially thrown their WC out the window the second that first punch came? If muay thai, etc. fight the way they train, why don't WC guys fight the way they train when against a skilled opponent?

This whole idea that WC is the most economical way to move the human body in a fight becomes absurd when faced against a worthy opponent who just fights naturally. These are serious issues that one must consider, because you might have taken on 200 guys, but that 201st just might be the one who actually knows how to fight.


To Vernon and anerlich

I understand that core concepts might be all one see's from WC when applied. But you know that those core concepts are exhibited by almost every single other combat art too! In fact the only core concept that might be different is the pak sao and the 'attempt' to disrupt the other guys defense. I won't lie, it will freak someone out, but a skilled fighter will learn your game quick. I don't know if any of the guys on this forum know this but both a 'distance fighter' and a 'grappler' want you to try to close the gap, so that they don't have to, and then they try to break your timing, and if their timing is good, you're screwed.

Simple fact, MT looks like MT when they fight, Boxing looks like Boxing, BJJ looks like BJJ, Karate, for the most part(and depends on type), looks like Karate and on and on it goes. Why the h$ll do WC guys not compete against skilled opponents and why on earth does it not look even remotely close when the few that have do? It looks like more of a conglomerate of all of the above! That doesn't make you think about a few things, at all?

And Vernon, glad to hear you found a JKD school. That's what I wanted back when I first started martial arts. I love Wing Chun, I really do but just like your founder, Bruce Lee, said, believed, and tested "The Highest Art is No Art, The Highest Form is No Form" I always understood the concept of that quote but I think I'm only really starting to understand what it truly means now, 10 years later.

_______________________________


This whole idea that I've spouted forth in this thread literally was, I went to sleep one night, woke up the next day, and said WTF. I was reading theory after theory, dispute after dispute in this forum, and I honestly just got tired of these declarations of authenticity or these disputes over how to properly perform a certain move/drill. What hit me smack in the head was that all this talk/theory was useless to what really mattered.

I didn't learn WC to learn an art like some here have, and that's perfectly fine, I learned WC to learn how to fight. My Sifu gave me no illusions of WC. There's not even talk of theory in our classes. He simply presented that this is what I have to offer, this is what I know how to teach. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. I blame the current WC culture for the illusions, but more importantly, I blame myself. This isn't 1960's Hong Kong anymore, I respect Wing Chun Gung Fu for what it is and I will probably train in it my whole life, but my mindset has changed and my awareness has awoken to 2011. So why don't we all wake up and stop being irresponsible with the false security we are giving not only ourselves, but our fellow Wing Chun practitioners

[Buddha_Fist]

Touché Matt!

You have only so much time to train... So you must invest it wisely if you want the best achievable results in the boxing method you have chosen. There is no time for Fantasy-Fu: Endless Chi-Sao games with no real translation to sparring/fighting, theory on top of theory, assumption over assumption...

I think that Ving Tsun can be a great boxing method if you focus on the essential: Does what I do work in the chaos of a fight? How well does it translate into fighting? Am I doing frequent reality checks? Is the method efficient? Is my training being efficient? What habits am I training? Am I actually spending all of my training time on achieving the tools necessary in a fight (punching power, mobility, speedy yet balanced footwork, timing, distance control, etc.)?

There are nowadays too many Ving Tsun Trekkies out there. Gotta work hard not to be one...

[GlennR]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

Post of the year in my opinion
Refreshingly honest and hard to (if not impossible) to argue against

I think youve hit it on the head with this line.....
"I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too."

Youre right... its a self defense system to protect you in a street situation.
And thats where it ends in my opinion
Ive done WC for 21 years now (not so much the last 5) and now i Box/MT..... quite simply they are better systems if you want to reach a high level of fighting.
I wont speak for the other combat styles (BJJ, wrestling etc) ,as i dont do them, but i would think the same in regards to those.

As you state, the evidence is there to support these styles, but theres none for WC.
Dont get me wrong, i love WC but im realistic in what i expect out of it.

Once again, great post
GlennR

[Lee Chiang Po]

Post of the year in my opinion
Refreshingly honest and hard to (if not impossible) to argue against

I think youve hit it on the head with this line.....
"I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too."

Youre right... its a self defense system to protect you in a street situation.
And thats where it ends in my opinion
Ive done WC for 21 years now (not so much the last 5) and now i Box/MT..... quite simply they are better systems if you want to reach a high level of fighting.
I wont speak for the other combat styles (BJJ, wrestling etc) ,as i dont do them, but i would think the same in regards to those.

As you state, the evidence is there to support these styles, but theres none for WC.
Dont get me wrong, i love WC but im realistic in what i expect out of it.

Once again, great post
GlennR

Sure it works well against skilled fighters. I started training WC 56 years ago, and it is the only way I know to fight. I can make it work, even now in my old age it has not abandoned me. Most all other forms of fighting will eventually abandon you due to your old age. WC is forever once learned. I have a high ranking in Jap Jiujitsu, and yet only use it when I do not want to really bust someone up. But if I am mad at you and really want to do you a job, I can do it with WC. I have the skills. If you really want to make WC work for you, you have to have confidence in it and train it like you trust it. Otherwise it is just a game of chi sao for you.

[GlennR]

Sure it works well against skilled fighters. I started training WC 56 years ago, and it is the only way I know to fight. I can make it work, even now in my old age it has not abandoned me. Most all other forms of fighting will eventually abandon you due to your old age. WC is forever once learned. I have a high ranking in Jap Jiujitsu, and yet only use it when I do not want to really bust someone up. But if I am mad at you and really want to do you a job, I can do it with WC. I have the skills. If you really want to make WC work for you, you have to have confidence in it and train it like you trust it. Otherwise it is just a game of chi sao for you.

I agree with you on one of your points.
And that is WC being able to be used into later years, i know some good guys into there 50's and 60's, and styles such as MT are hard on the body (great for finess though)

BUT... when it comes to delivering straight out, competitive fighters you cant argue with the evidence that keeps coming back to boxing/mt/bjj/wrestling as the better styles

[Frost]

I agree with you on one of your points.
And that is WC being able to be used into later years, i know some good guys into there 50's and 60's, and styles such as MT are hard on the body (great for finess though)

BUT... when it comes to delivering straight out, competitive fighters you cant argue with the evidence that keeps coming back to boxing/mt/bjj/wrestling as the better styles

i know boxers and judo guys still able to hand people their backsides well into their 50's

the question should probably be if there are so few examples of wing chun working for people in their 20 and 30's against other skilled fighters, what makes anyone thing that as you get older, slower and weaker it will suddenly work better than those styles

[GlennR]

i know boxers and judo guys still able to hand people their backsides well into their 50's

the question should probably be if there are so few examples of wing chun working for people in their 20 and 30's against other skilled fighters, what makes anyone thing that as you get older, slower and weaker it will suddenly work better than those styles

Yep, dont personally know any judo guys but i know a few 50 plus boxers that can more than look after themselves.

The reason the older guys in WC appear good is that they (generally) only train with their own students..... they know their juniors game so its a no brainer that they appear superior.

Especially if chi-sao is the measuring stick.

So when the 20-30 yo's finally meet up with, say a 20-30 yo MT stylist, they get owned

And i think its criminal that these instructors dont get their studemts to mix it up with other styles...its either arrogance, stupidity or a combination of both.

And if i read one more guy say, i know this guy thats never been filmed blah blah blah..... ill puke

[Vernon]

Hello, newbie perspective here...

I've recently started training in JKD. I have a real interest and respect for Wing Chun and it's some of the most enjoyable parts of my workouts. However, I see WC as a very valuable part of a bigger system of fighting (JKD or whatever one wants to call it) rather than the complete system itself. There are vital skills, concepts, and tools (e.g. pak sao, forward pressure, economy of motion) that one can use from WC during a real fight and/or full contact event; so looking for instances of people successfully using elements of WC during a fight seems more logical to me than looking for folks using exclusively WC during a fight.

One of the most profound posts I've read here recently was when Phil Redmond stated something to the effect of him being a Martial Artist who specializes in Wing Chun rather than being strictly a WC man. I really like this philosophy.

Just because one doesn't see a plethora of videos on YouTube of fighters effectively using nothing but Wing Chun during full contact fights doesn't equate, in my mind anyways, to WC lacking practicality in today's world. It simply speaks to the wisdom of using some of the tools of WC, which have withstood the test of time, as one means to an end rather than the only means to an end.

[lance]

Hello, newbie perspective here...

I've recently started training in JKD. I have a real interest and respect for Wing Chun and it's some of the most enjoyable parts of my workouts. However, I see WC as a very valuable part of a bigger system of fighting (JKD or whatever one wants to call it) rather than the complete system itself. There are vital skills, concepts, and tools (e.g. pak sao, forward pressure, economy of motion) that one can use from WC during a real fight and/or full contact event; so looking for instances of people successfully using elements of WC during a fight seems more logical to me than looking for folks using exclusively WC during a fight.

One of the most profound posts I've read here recently was when Phil Redmond stated something to the effect of him being a Martial Artist who specializes in Wing Chun rather than being strictly a WC man. I really like this philosophy.

Just because one doesn't see a plethora of videos on YouTube of fighters effectively using nothing but Wing Chun during full contact fights doesn't equate, in my mind anyways, to WC lacking practicality in today's world. It simply speaks to the wisdom of using some of the tools of WC, which have withstood the test of time, as one means to an end rather than the only means to an end.

Vernon ,

Welcome , to this thread , who is your teacher in JKD ? Are you learning the original JKD or JKD concepts ? Just wanted to know ?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Having been in fights in the ring, street, and also having trained with very light gloves, with and without shoes, I will say that WC and most traditional arts are taught in a way that allows you to survive more "street-style" encounters. You might not like WC punching for a ring but train with very light gloves or bare knuckles with no wrist support and the punching style starts making a lot of sense.

The kicking seems less effective in the ring. Well, look to Savate where shoes are used and you will see a lot of short snappy kicks because they wear shoes and use them as weapons.

Even classical Muay Thai is deficient for contemporary Muay thai events. Although, in a bare knuckle scenario, classical Muay Thai with its lack of boxing hand techniques might be more effective in the long run as you won't break your hand. The modern ring is an environment that dictates certain skills and techniques. Insisting upon proving that classical WC works in that environment is just foolish. The environment dictates what you need to do.

Although, I think a guy like Phil will agree that a heck of a lot transports from classical WC into the ring. He works with some professional boxers who seem to be of the same opinion. Short, quick punching and snappy accurate kicks can be an asset. The clinching, parries, and footwork are always useful as well.