Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=mvbrown21;1096955]Wow, way to throw me under the bus Joy!

((I am genuinely surprised by your comment.We are mis-communicating))joy

I've tried to leave the lineage out of it and have even responded that this has nothing to do with my Sifu, Sigung, etc.... This is a personal revelation and yet again, the small print at the bottom that no one seemed to read, I simply asked "Anyone else here feel the same way?"

((You did mention them in passing in your posts. Your post seemed to raise several different questions. I apparently do not feel the same way as you do. The art does not do anything- the artist does.))

I've also stated that I love WC and will probably never stop and that WC is a very effective self-defense system.

((I did not question that point)

I love how you say things too, like you aren't responding to me directly but choose an indirect path to save face. And it's definitely not about acceptance by others either Joy, and quite honestly, the indirect way you implied that to me offends me.

((Indirect- I don't think so. I did not intend to offend you or anyone else.))

Joy, you have a PhD, don't know what it's in, but hey, that means you're probably a smart guy.

((I am way past a PHD-I have given those for some time- but that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread or this list. Different hats in different places))

It doesn't take much after using a little scientific theory to see that, bottom line, either WC is one of the most difficult systems in the world to apply in a "pure" sense or it's simply not there, period, at least in the understanding that the WC community promotes. And I don't believe guys who fight and the actual technique isn't there, to be still fighting with WC

((I opt for the former.. wing chun aims for simplicity in application but is not simple to learn IMO.
Also- there is no such thing as "the WC community"-I have held that opinion for quite some time - almost from the beginning))

And that was my point, simple as that, WC has it's place in fighting but I choose reality over fantasy. Doesn't mean I'm bashing WC or my teacher or your teacher.

((I did NOT think that you were blasting your teacher or mine. I believe that you misunderstood what I was saying. Happens in net communications. Apparently I don't understand how you are using the terms "reality" and "fantasy". I am sorry for that.. plus any contribution of mine to the misunderstanding.))

I am happy and confident with my WC Joy. I think I can apply "certain" things against a "worthy" opponent. I think "others" can too. And I think there is that rare exception, as well.

((OK))

But I've concluded that there's some serious limitations to WC, and that the WC community is somewhat responsible for promoting an idea that it's a flawless system, hence putting the average practitioner in a somewhat safety situation. And at the end of the day Joy, the lack of evidence supports me more than you.

((I understand your stated opinion. You have not been here long enough to see some of my repeated statements that many folks should not be doing wing chun and many folks should not be teaching wing chun. Wing chun has spread too much for it's own good))

joy chaudhuri

[shawchemical]

= I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that's the first step.

This is the fundamental flaw of your argument, and highlights what your problem is.

WC doesn't do anything. It is simply a tool. It is all about what YOU can do, or what you CAN'T do.

Your claim that you feel that your training is still useful, but that it doesn't fit as what you thought it's capability for equipping you was is nonsense. Either admit that the school in which you were training did not teach or train effectively, that you did not train diligently, or that your fundamental point is entirely invalid.

[kowloonboy]

“Understand the principles for your training.” – Wing Chun kuen Kuit

“Upon achieving the highest level of proficiency, application of techniques will vary depending on the opponent.” – Wing Chun kuen Kuit

Wong Shun Leung said "Wing Chun in theory is perfect but never can someone achieve such a state of perfection." This is because Wing Chun is based on principles that are always true. However principles are really just ideas so in order to apply them you must move in a certain way (perform a technique, even if it is something you have never done before). Inevitably the practitioner cannot always perform in the perfect way, they can only train hard to get as close to perfection as their body will allow them.

[mvbrown21]

I find it amusing that WC guys can talk, analyze, and dissect WC all day long but the second it turns to how effective WC is against a skilled opponent, there's really not a discussion. Just attacks on your training and a straight refusal to have an open mind to something we've all invested a tremendous amount of time into.

Look, in theory, almost "every" martial art is perfect and it definitely is up to the individual. All I'm saying is that, whether myself as an individual, or others, as individuals, the technique itself, of WC doesn't appear to bode very well against trained, experienced opponents. In theory, it's the most scientific approach to fighting ever! But in reality, your bong sau, biu sau, or any other technique for that matter, "will" collapse against a bigger, stronger opponent the majority, if not all, of the time. If you think that you can "flow" with it and make a follow up attack, you'll be pretty surprised when he doesn't fall. And then what are you going to do? If he's a distance fighter, you'll probably have to attempt it all over again, once again making yourself vulnerable. So what do you do, and 99% of every guy who's "really" tested out their WC. You go outside of the technique and start fighting in a more natural way and half the time, it's pathetic.

To this wing chunner, if myself or someone else goes outside the technique, I don't consider it still to be WC, I consider it to now be concept. People here take concept as a bad thing and I don't know why?

All of this is strictly my personal observation and I honestly thought more people would be open to kind of conversation considering a good chunk of guys got into WC because of Bruce Lee whom approached this subject not too differently from myself.

[Hendrik]

Here is my five cents of straight talk, take it or leave it

I find it amusing that WC guys can talk, analyze, and dissect WC all day long but the second it turns to how effective WC is against a skilled opponent, there's really not a discussion.

Just attacks on your training and a straight refusal to have an open mind to something we've all invested a tremendous amount of time into.

It has become a cult practice that refuse to even face the facture. Name brand, ego, and everyone like to have an opinion disregards if the opinion worth anything or not.

Look, in theory, almost "every" martial art is perfect and it definitely is up to the individual.

That is not true at all. Even in China there is lower level village fighting practice and advance martial art practice by IE the Emperor's body guard.

Not everything is equal.

All I'm saying is that, whether myself as an individual, or others, as individuals, the technique itself, of WC doesn't appear to bode very well against trained, experienced opponents.

If you take a digitized force/power vector trajectory of today's typical WCner vesus the same digitize power trajectory of say Ice man.

You will find out WCner has only a high density frontal power trajectory compare with such as the Iceman where the high density power trajectory cover much wider range and much dynamic. also the power intensity will be much higher then the WCner due to the big body as a whole motion.


So, by physics, WCK today has a much narrow firing range and less intensity compare with mmA.

Thus, if you look at the clips of all WCner who fought in mmA, they adapt the wider firing range and higher intensity power/momentum training and discard the so called WC rapid fire to center line training. They will call it something like using the body structure.... or different term. However, that is very similar to the mmA power/momentum platform rather then the usual WCK chi sau, forward pressure YJKYM, Chain punch platform.

In theory, it's the most scientific approach to fighting ever! But in reality, your bong sau, biu sau, or any other technique for that matter, "will" collapse against a bigger, stronger opponent the majority, if not all, of the time.

Theory is only for those who have never train the real deal but want to stay at upper hand while argue in the internet forum. The facts needs to based on power/momentum handling/management.

Bong Sau, Biu Sau .... are just name of shape which is meaningless. The bottom line is how fast one could generate the power or absorbtion and how high the intensity of impact. Whether it use the shape of Bong Sau or Biu Sau it doesnt matter.

If you think that you can "flow" with it and make a follow up attack, you'll be pretty surprised when he doesn't fall. And then what are you going to do? If he's a distance fighter, you'll probably have to attempt it all over again, once again making yourself vulnerable. So what do you do, and 99% of every guy who's "really" tested out their WC. You go outside of the technique and start fighting in a more natural way and half the time, it's pathetic.

For get about "flow'. Flow is mostly running away and cannot handle and sustain the pressure but losing the timing big time.

To this wing chunner, if myself or someone else goes outside the technique, I don't consider it still to be WC, I consider it to now be concept. People here take concept as a bad thing and I don't know why?

Those consider WC or not is like using the man made rule trying to bound the change of nature. It doesnt work.

All of this is strictly my personal observation and I honestly thought more people would be open to kind of conversation considering a good chunk of guys got into WC because of Bruce Lee whom approached this subject not too differently from myself.

Keep observe more and dont believe anyone,
look at law of physcis in term of power generation and momentum handling. the rest is lips service.



WCK is in its extinc phase now. take a look, that SLT/SNT set training which actually produce very little result but lots of bad habit and religion type meaningless mimic-ing. Why no one question those training? and keep wish someday "wa la" one become a super fighter.

WCK has become a cult a blindness trying to pursue oneself that what one speculate or theoritical sounds can replace physical facts. it has become an entertainment for chatting and dancing like social gethering.


if the WCner still keep romancing that Chi Sau platform and those movie like technics instead of go back to the root and examine the power/momentum generation and handling dynamics. it is a hopeless.


For me, most people today is doing Shaws Brother Chinese Martial art movies Kung Fu. That is the vision that is how they practice and that is how the result look like --- something looks great in the movie, similar to what in the movie but disconnect from the physical world. in reality, it cant even take a heavy short from a boxer, single short to knock out.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . WC doesn't appear to bode very well against trained, experienced opponents. In theory, it's the most scientific approach to fighting ever! But in reality, your bong sau, biu sau, or any other technique for that matter, "will" collapse against a bigger, stronger opponent the majority, if not all, of the time. If you think that you can "flow" with it and make a follow up attack, you'll be pretty surprised when he doesn't fall. And then what are you going to do? If he's a distance fighter, you'll probably have to attempt it all over again, once again making yourself vulnerable. So what do you do, and 99% of every guy who's "really" tested out their WC. You go outside of the technique and start fighting in a more natural way and half the time, it's pathetic. . . . .

Whoa, slow down bro. I KNOW that the WC I do and teach works against stronger opponents, boxers, or whatever. This is also true of other WC people. Don't put all WC on the same plate.

[Hendrik]

Whoa, slow down bro. I KNOW that the WC I do and teach works against stronger opponents, boxers, or whatever. This is also true of other WC people. Don't put all WC on the same plate.

Phil,

What do you think on my view above? I love to hear from you because you are in the competitions for decades, so your critics are valueable.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,

What do you think on my view above? I love to hear from you because you are in the competitions for decades, so your critics are valueable.

Hendrik, due to the syntax of your post I can't get the specifics of your post but I do get the gist of it.
People who don't compete look for perfect technique in a fight. They don't realize that against a resisting opponent bent on wrecking you that perfect technique isn't always going to happen. WC people are the worst at this. They expect to see techniques like they see in their drills with compliant partners. You can look at clips of boxers/MMA fighters training on the heavy bag, with mitts, light sparring or whatever and it looks nice. But when they get into the ring you'll see all sorts of mistakes because it's the nature of real fighting. I say to ANYONE who criticizes a fighter to get into the ring and show people the right way to do it. It's that simple. I'll learn form anyone if they have something useful to teach.

[YouKnowWho]

in China there is lower level village fighting practice and advance martial art practice by IE the Emperor's body guard.

Not everything is equal.

One TCMA master once said, "If you train both style A and style B, even God and ghost will be afraid of you." One day 3 guys from style C went to that school and challenged his students. None of his students dared to accept the challenge.

One TCMA master also said, "If you train system A for 1 years, you can beat up those who train system B for 3 years." He also said, "If you train system C for 1 year, you can pick up guy who train system A for 3 years and play him as a toy in your palm."

All my life, I have never seen such style C fighter who can play others in his palm. I don't believe there is a superior TCMA style exist on this planet. If it does exist, believe me, I would be the 1st student to train in that system.

PS. Style A, B, and C are not mentioned, but people who knows what happened in Taiwan 40 years ago may know what I'm talking about here.

[Phil Redmond]

There are good and bad practitioners in ALL styles.

[PalmStriker]

The answer is actual quite simple:
The reason you don't see many ( virtually none to be honest) WC practioners fighting full contact is because the VAST MAJORITY of them do NOT train to fight full contact or compete.
The reason you see so many boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters, BJJ fighters and so forth is because a sizeable percentage of them train to fight and compete.

Now, perhaps the "more correct" question is why don't more WC people train to fight and compete.

And that is a very good question.

True analysis. For WC, sport fighting takes a backseat to self-defense/offense? WC is usually not considered a fitness/health style, must be for martial skills.

[PalmStriker]

Thanks Phil
Fact is that those that have used WC in fights know that that it works.
Fact is that EVERY MA system has to be trained to be used in a fight for it to work in a fight.
It's the training, not the system.
Take pretty much ANY MA and if you train it within a fighting environment, it will work in that environment.
You and your people have shown it, Alan and his people have shown it.

Augustine Fong has shown it.

[PalmStriker]

Quote: mvBrown21 , I've tried to leave the lineage out of it and have even responded that this has nothing to do with my Sifu, Sigung, etc.... This is a personal revelation and yet again, the small print at the bottom that no one seemed to read, I simply asked "Anyone else here feel the same way?" Yes. Bruce Lee felt that way, as explained in a letter to William Cheung years ago. Different strokes.

[PalmStriker]

Lastly, for anyone who has read enough MA history there have been individuals of many different styles who have been "unbeatable" up against many different styles.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, due to the syntax of your post I can't get the specifics of your post but I do get the gist of it.
People who don't compete look for perfect technique in a fight. They don't realize that against a resisting opponent bent on wrecking you that perfect technique isn't always going to happen. WC people are the worst at this. They expect to see techniques like they see in their drills with compliant partners. You can look at clips of boxers/MMA fighters training on the heavy bag, with mitts, light sparring or whatever and it looks nice. But when they get into the ring you'll see all sorts of mistakes because it's the nature of real fighting. I say to ANYONE who criticizes a fighter to get into the ring and show people the right way to do it. It's that simple. I'll learn form anyone if they have something useful to teach.

Phil,

Thanks!

What you post is a truth.