Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

[k gledhill]

No, i want to see WC structure in their delivery. I see that in Alan Orrs guys.

Thats what defines a WC fighter to me.

So you like A Orr....I don't see VT personally

[GlennR]

Okay, what would ?

As i said, a WC strucure in the delivery

So my question would be to you what makes you think it is WC?

[k gledhill]

As i said, a WC strucure in the delivery

So my question would be to you what makes you think it is WC?

Do you train VT?

[GlennR]

Do you train VT?

Not so much anymore.... i box and MT

But yep im a WCer, started in 1990

[k gledhill]

Not so much anymore.... i box and MT

But yep im a WCer, started in 1990

What way of VT?

[GlennR]

What way of VT?

i assume you mean lineage?

[k gledhill]

i assume you mean lineage?

What way, yes.

[GlennR]

What way, yes.

I initially started with a TST line then, due to moving, tripped over a mainland style which would be the bulk of my training

Moved back to where i am now and went and trained with the TST guys i started with.
Have cross trained with WSL &WCheung guys on the way.

Dabbled in Pak Mei (nice style) and have been MTing the last 3 years with crossover boxing training whilst still keeping my finger in WC.

[Frost]

Do we have any evidence of this besides what came out of the gracies mouths? They are known for their tall tales after all

yep the co promotor art said it in several interviews, and there are some quotes on the net from karlins management saying he was invited but declined
, i remember reading that years ago am not looking for them now though lol

The co promoter was in it to make money (as were the investors) he wanted the best guys to fight in order to get rickson invloved, he knew he could make bigger sales and more money the more talent involved, of course realistically was a top 10 boxer, thai boxer, or wrestler going to take part in a new no holds barred event where they could get seriously injured...probably not but then the best BJJ guys werent fighting either, rickson, sperry were all better grapplers and fighters than royce. SO in essance it was second best against second best.

the first ufc had the following
art whats his name the IBC Americas Light Heavyweight boxing champ champ. ……

Gerard Gordeau, the world heavyweight champion full contact savate and european heavyweight kickboxing champ

Zane Frasier the WKF Super Heavyweight Kenpo Karate champion.

future UFC Hall of Fame member Ken Shamrock.

Kevin Rozier, the WKA and ISKA Super Heavyweight kickboxing champion.

oh and the fat sumo guy

some good strikers (well for the time) and a grappler or to, the boxer tried to pull out when he heard the rules only to get a 20 thousand dollar bonus to fight, his corner tried to throw in the towel as soon as the fight started but it got cought on the fence lol

[k gledhill]

i assume you mean lineage?

I initially started with a TST line then, due to moving, tripped over a mainland style which would be the bulk of my training

Moved back to where i am now and went and trained with the TST guys i started with.
Have cross trained with WSL &WCheung guys on the way.

Dabbled in Pak Mei (nice style) and have been MTing the last 3 years with crossover boxing training whilst still keeping my finger in WC.

Just wondering about your not seeing a attacking intent with attacking entry as VT or not. Rough as it is if you asked a VT student to hit / touch your jaw as you tried to move away evading contact you would see a basic idea. Distance to jaw, force to jaw maintained with footwork to channel leg strength to hips- elbows- fists/ forearms. IMO many lineages lack enough knowledge of whole footwork available to them in the system. A basic thing seen in all fights freedom of movement with strategic reasons.
Boxers learn this MT....a lot of VT seem to only get shown. Back and forth and angling / turning to redirect force rather than move to lines of incoming force from no contact. A thing sticking feeling misleeds many into following.

[David Jamieson]

Other way round to me...if you didn't say who's who and asked which does VT ...the other Guy is.

the other guy is inconsequential. He is not a wc prac and Joel Sutton is (the guy in blue)

wc has not fronted a fighter with any great success in any modern martial arts venue. In fact NO traditional practitioner has succeeded in the evolved modern sports of H2H.

so, if you want that, then it is really up to YOU (whoever) to be that.

so long as wc stays in a closed house and focuses only on WC is as long as they will continue to not be able to front a capable fighter.

[GlennR]

Just wondering about your not seeing a attacking intent with attacking entry as VT or not. Rough as it is if you asked a VT student to hit / touch your jaw as you tried to move away evading contact you would see a basic idea. Distance to jaw, force to jaw maintained with footwork to channel leg strength to hips- elbows- fists/ forearms. IMO many lineages lack enough knowledge of whole footwork available to them in the system. A basic thing seen in all fights freedom of movement with strategic reasons.
Boxers learn this MT....a lot of VT seem to only get shown. Back and forth and angling / turning to redirect force rather than move to lines of incoming force from no contact. A thing sticking feeling misleeds many into following.

Sure, i take your point, but as you said others styles learn this so its not a WC Exclusive technique to blast through ,like the guy in the clip.

I see in that video a couple of things WCish.... straight punches coming forward one after the other... but to me that doesnt make it WC.. he's throwing punches like a boxer with pretty non-descript stepping.

Sure, he had intent... but WC doesnt have exclusive rights on that

[Wayfaring]

Like you said I have tested my thing often and its strong. If you don't think my punch will break a jaw, and need a clip to prove it, sorry.

This is the difference between your average WCK senior and your average 3 yr. MMA trained fighter.

The WCK senior uses words like raison d'etre to sound more intellectual when questioning the advances in the last 20 yrs of fighting arts, initialized by the Gracie challenge and the UFC. Also, the WCK senior is under a great deal of delusion in that he thinks that if he "goes all out" in punching someone in a live training scenario he's going to be breaking people's jaws left and right.

The average 3 yr. trained MMA fighter would look puzzingly at someone who questioned why a realistic unbiased forum for testing martial arts fighting skill across different arts needs to justify their existence. They would counter with the observation that realistic training places the burden upon traditionally trained TMA's and less realistic exercises such as "chi sau" trained primarily to develop fighting skills to provide their own raison d'etre. After all, the video evidence of fighting prowess is almost everywhere you look in a MMA context, but nowhere to be found in a TMA trained WCK context.

Also, the average 3 yr trained MMA fighter knows as an obvious fact that people's jaws get broken by punches in a live full contact environment only by luck in timing and someone hanging their mouth open.

The WCK senior delusionally thinks that they would "break jaws" if they trained harder than their steering wheel chi sau exercises in "chi sau". This is because they seldom if ever move their training environments beyond the push and slap level that basic chi sau trains.

This is the contrast of a more realistic viewpoint born from experience contrasted with a delusional viewpoint born from myth, legend, and ineffectual training methods.

[k gledhill]

This is the difference between your average WCK senior and your average 3 yr. MMA trained fighter.

The WCK senior uses words like raison d'etre to sound more intellectual when questioning the advances in the last 20 yrs of fighting arts, initialized by the Gracie challenge and the UFC. Also, the WCK senior is under a great deal of delusion in that he thinks that if he "goes all out" in punching someone in a live training scenario he's going to be breaking people's jaws left and right.

The average 3 yr. trained MMA fighter would look puzzingly at someone who questioned why a realistic unbiased forum for testing martial arts fighting skill across different arts needs to justify their existence. They would counter with the observation that realistic training places the burden upon traditionally trained TMA's and less realistic exercises such as "chi sau" trained primarily to develop fighting skills to provide their own raison d'etre. After all, the video evidence of fighting prowess is almost everywhere you look in a MMA context, but nowhere to be found in a TMA trained WCK context.

Also, the average 3 yr trained MMA fighter knows as an obvious fact that people's jaws get broken by punches in a live full contact environment only by luck in timing and someone hanging their mouth open.

The WCK senior delusionally thinks that they would "break jaws" if they trained harder than their steering wheel chi sau exercises in "chi sau". This is because they seldom if ever move their training environments beyond the push and slap level that basic chi sau trains.

This is the contrast of a more realistic viewpoint born from experience contrasted with a delusional viewpoint born from myth, legend, and ineffectual training methods.

Yawn ...... you're taking my post too literally Wayfaring and then trying to make an argument off it yeah Im an intellectual and raison d'etre proves it ...breaking jaws I've only broken one jaw in a fight. Dont go nuts on that. I worked with a guy from Newcastle, boxer, bouncing, who said he would calmly insult your mother and get your jaw to open a fraction before 'chinning' you ... or he would offer you a cigarette and as you opened your mouth to light it , chin you obviously to get the jaw open.

We all have seen the development of fighting , VT has had a wake up call too. Its not exclusive to mma

The Gracie challenge and the UFC ? what do you mean ? you're implying it was staged ? to make the Gracies have a platform for their ways ? herecy !! Frost wont have that....

[anerlich]

you're taking my post too literally Wayfaring and then trying to make an argument off it

Come off it, Kev, you do that often enough.

To be fair though, the forum would be very quiet indeed if no one did that.