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Thread: Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

  1. #31

    why is there not a single WC fighter , anywhere

    Quote Originally Posted by Vernon View Post
    Hello, newbie perspective here...

    I've recently started training in JKD. I have a real interest and respect for Wing Chun and it's some of the most enjoyable parts of my workouts. However, I see WC as a very valuable part of a bigger system of fighting (JKD or whatever one wants to call it) rather than the complete system itself. There are vital skills, concepts, and tools (e.g. pak sao, forward pressure, economy of motion) that one can use from WC during a real fight and/or full contact event; so looking for instances of people successfully using elements of WC during a fight seems more logical to me than looking for folks using exclusively WC during a fight.

    One of the most profound posts I've read here recently was when Phil Redmond stated something to the effect of him being a Martial Artist who specializes in Wing Chun rather than being strictly a WC man. I really like this philosophy.

    Just because one doesn't see a plethora of videos on YouTube of fighters effectively using nothing but Wing Chun during full contact fights doesn't equate, in my mind anyways, to WC lacking practicality in today's world. It simply speaks to the wisdom of using some of the tools of WC, which have withstood the test of time, as one means to an end rather than the only means to an end.
    Vernon ,

    Welcome , to this thread , who is your teacher in JKD ? Are you learning the original JKD or JKD concepts ? Just wanted to know ?

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    I wrote:
    "Well, I fought and won full contact matches when not everyone had a camera like now.
    So I know that WC can work. There are some fight clips on my website and my two youtube channels. Then there is Shawn Obasi."

    Just in case you were referring to my post. Along with my Wing Chun training I was trained by Yoel Judah, and Mark Breland.
    These fights were mostly at Fu Jow Pai events where elbows, knees, and takedowns were legal. You were even allowed to strike an opponent on the ground no more than 3 times. My fights weren't videoed but I did fight a famous fighter from NY named Jonas Nunez. Also, I don't just have drills and chi sao clips. I have clips of our guys competing in full contact events as well.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2W...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-un...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmGajyKqbeQ

    There are also clips of other WC people fighting on my channel. I'm training people for fights now. Where are you located? Maybe you can stop by our NYC school.
    I wasn't talking about you. I've seen clips of your students fighting.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Post of the year in my opinion
    Refreshingly honest and hard to (if not impossible) to argue against

    I think youve hit it on the head with this line.....
    "I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too."

    Youre right... its a self defense system to protect you in a street situation.
    And thats where it ends in my opinion
    Ive done WC for 21 years now (not so much the last 5) and now i Box/MT..... quite simply they are better systems if you want to reach a high level of fighting.
    I wont speak for the other combat styles (BJJ, wrestling etc) ,as i dont do them, but i would think the same in regards to those.

    As you state, the evidence is there to support these styles, but theres none for WC.
    Dont get me wrong, i love WC but im realistic in what i expect out of it.

    Once again, great post
    GlennR
    Sure it works well against skilled fighters. I started training WC 56 years ago, and it is the only way I know to fight. I can make it work, even now in my old age it has not abandoned me. Most all other forms of fighting will eventually abandon you due to your old age. WC is forever once learned. I have a high ranking in Jap Jiujitsu, and yet only use it when I do not want to really bust someone up. But if I am mad at you and really want to do you a job, I can do it with WC. I have the skills. If you really want to make WC work for you, you have to have confidence in it and train it like you trust it. Otherwise it is just a game of chi sao for you.
    Jackie Lee

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    Sure it works well against skilled fighters. I started training WC 56 years ago, and it is the only way I know to fight. I can make it work, even now in my old age it has not abandoned me. Most all other forms of fighting will eventually abandon you due to your old age. WC is forever once learned. I have a high ranking in Jap Jiujitsu, and yet only use it when I do not want to really bust someone up. But if I am mad at you and really want to do you a job, I can do it with WC. I have the skills. If you really want to make WC work for you, you have to have confidence in it and train it like you trust it. Otherwise it is just a game of chi sao for you.
    I agree with you on one of your points.
    And that is WC being able to be used into later years, i know some good guys into there 50's and 60's, and styles such as MT are hard on the body (great for finess though)

    BUT... when it comes to delivering straight out, competitive fighters you cant argue with the evidence that keeps coming back to boxing/mt/bjj/wrestling as the better styles

  5. #35
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    re

    Quote Originally Posted by mvbrown21 View Post
    Hey guys,

    I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

    On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

    It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

    WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

    Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

    I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

    Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


    Anyone else here feel the same way?


    _


    MMA is fought in as large spacious octagon or hexagon and even when the fighters clinch there is still room (and floor space) to grapple. There is no need nor opportunity to straight blast your way out of a narrow corridor.

  6. #36
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    Don't you mean why are there no Wing Chun fighters on Tee Vee?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    I agree with you on one of your points.
    And that is WC being able to be used into later years, i know some good guys into there 50's and 60's, and styles such as MT are hard on the body (great for finess though)

    BUT... when it comes to delivering straight out, competitive fighters you cant argue with the evidence that keeps coming back to boxing/mt/bjj/wrestling as the better styles
    i know boxers and judo guys still able to hand people their backsides well into their 50's

    the question should probably be if there are so few examples of wing chun working for people in their 20 and 30's against other skilled fighters, what makes anyone thing that as you get older, slower and weaker it will suddenly work better than those styles

  8. #38

    why is there not a single WC fighter , anywhere

    Quote Originally Posted by mvbrown21 View Post
    Some of you understood me, some of you didn't understand, some of you misquoted me, and some of you took it as a threat....

    Look, first thing's first, this has nothing to do with my teacher or lineage. IMHO I think I have some of the purest WC teaching available. The HKM/Augustine Fong line. I've been practicing WC for over 10 years now and have obtained a fairly good skill level within the system.

    Once again, I'm not bashing WC. I think it's great and is a very effective self-defense system. I just, to some degree, have come to the realization that it pretty much stops there. I no longer believe it to be the 'end all, be all' that so many in the WC community believe it to be. I view it now more as a supplemental system more than a primary system.

    At one point in time I thought it was more a 'combat art' but I now believe it to be more a 'concept art'. It's not that I haven't tested it out myself because I have. Many times in both a real environment and also a sparring environment. You can fight dirty all day long and win, and WC is very good at having dirty technique. But that about amounts to someone's in your face, they push you or something of the like, and you attack easily obliterating them. In a lot of ways it's no different from a sucker punch, and at least to this WC practitioner, that doesn't amount to quality of skill. Anyone could use that aggressive concept and win with any technique, WC or not.

    Now when it comes to an opponent who's not that stupid and has a fair amount of skill themselves, things drastically change in regards to WC. I know some WC guys here do practice sparring. That's great. But the technique that everyone here learned, the 3 forms, the dummy, the weapons forms, Chi Sao, etc., essentially the technique itself, are simply not there when facing off against a worthy opponent. It goes right out the window and they become more 'natural' fighters. Now they can call it WC and say that that's their basis for what they're doing. That's fine, but that just proves that the WC system itself is just 'concept' based then. These guys have evolved their technique outside of the original system and I don't know about you, but that tells me something.

    Now you'll either understand what I'm trying to express here or you won't. That's fine. But just remember that whether you're a teacher or a student, you are being irresponsible with your safety or your students safety if you are lead to believe that the WC system alone will protect you.

    Let me state this once again, I love Wing Chun, I will continue to study it probably my whole life. I've just realized that, unlike the type of "fantasy-fu" that is talked about within this forum about the different lineages, the "fantasy-fu" that the WC community 'as a whole' promotes will no longer have it's grip on me. I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that's the first step.
    Mybrown , excuse me for reading your thread wrong , your wing chun lineage Ho Kam Ming / Austine Fong , I heard that they ' re good , so keep up your wing chun training . Because now that you mentioned your wing chun lineage and the number of years of experience you have in wing chun , now I can see where your comming from , so sorry to misunderstand your thread . You should be good by now so I ' ll leave you alone .

    As for your qustion why is ' nt there any WC fights out there or anywhere ? Well your guess is just as good as mine a big ? .

    Is Fong Sifu still teaching Hung Gar ? Because I heard that he learned Hung Gar and choy li fut . But anyway , keep training up the training .

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    i know boxers and judo guys still able to hand people their backsides well into their 50's

    the question should probably be if there are so few examples of wing chun working for people in their 20 and 30's against other skilled fighters, what makes anyone thing that as you get older, slower and weaker it will suddenly work better than those styles
    Yep, dont personally know any judo guys but i know a few 50 plus boxers that can more than look after themselves.

    The reason the older guys in WC appear good is that they (generally) only train with their own students..... they know their juniors game so its a no brainer that they appear superior.

    Especially if chi-sao is the measuring stick.

    So when the 20-30 yo's finally meet up with, say a 20-30 yo MT stylist, they get owned

    And i think its criminal that these instructors dont get their studemts to mix it up with other styles...its either arrogance, stupidity or a combination of both.

    And if i read one more guy say, i know this guy thats never been filmed blah blah blah..... ill puke

  10. #40
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    The answer is actual quite simple:
    The reason you don't see many ( virtually none to be honest) WC practioners fighting full contact is because the VAST MAJORITY of them do NOT train to fight full contact or compete.
    The reason you see so many boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters, BJJ fighters and so forth is because a sizeable percentage of them train to fight and compete.

    Now, perhaps the "more correct" question is why don't more WC people train to fight and compete.

    And that is a very good question.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Sorry, I though you were looking for suggestions, not delivering a sermon.
    Yes, I agree. I totally see where this has gone. As per usual, a 'good intentions' thread was just a covert-op mission.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  12. #42
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    What it looks like...

    And just to comment on the issue that Wing Chun doesn't look like any other fighting:

    It doesn't look like any other fighting methodology because it doesn't work.

    If it looked like all other methods (somewhat) then, in my mind, we could all kick back with a cold one believing in our hearts that NOW our Wing Chun was functional.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  13. #43
    As threads go--this too is zig zagging. To answer Matt's original questions- if I got it right..or atleast give some observations and opinions.Not arguing with others-nor preaching.

    1. Matt himself posted a shot of a wc guy who won againsts a MT guy.
    2. Lui Ming Fai's website has won against a MT guy and his site has a shot of him .
    3. I have seen several of Matt's sihings- not from his kwoon-in action against non wc guys in tournaments-that includes Dom, Danny and Nancy- no videos were involved.
    4. I got disqualified in a couple of matches against non wc guys for breaking the rules and excessive force..I was interested in only what works and it did. No pictures- no interest in trophies.
    5. I squared off against a MT instructor in NY in the 90s- to see what worked- and was satisfied.
    Ditto- in experimenting with grapplers and strikers.
    6. There are pics of wc against non wc that I have seen that are not on you tube.
    7. wing chun is not just conceptual- it is combative.
    8. My advice to anyone who has done wc for 8 years or so and don't have confidence in their wc-
    do something else. Wing chun is not the only way to combat- but I am happy and confident with it.Acceptance by others is not my goal.

    joy

  14. #44
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    I trend to think its more the training rather than the system
    .lots of wing chun schools don't do any bag work or sparring, lots don't even do fitness, just lots of chi sao, so they don't do well when they spar , because they don't learn opponents timing and mobile foot work.. If u want to do well sparring against other styles then u have to practice sparring

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The answer is actual quite simple:
    The reason you don't see many ( virtually none to be honest) WC practioners fighting full contact is because the VAST MAJORITY of them do NOT train to fight full contact or compete.
    The reason you see so many boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters, BJJ fighters and so forth is because a sizeable percentage of them train to fight and compete.

    Now, perhaps the "more correct" question is why don't more WC people train to fight and compete.

    And that is a very good question.
    Your post Wing Chun'd (simplified) it.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

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