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Thread: Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    Your post Wing Chun'd (simplified) it.
    Thanks Phil
    Fact is that those that have used WC in fights know that that it works.
    Fact is that EVERY MA system has to be trained to be used in a fight for it to work in a fight.
    It's the training, not the system.
    Take pretty much ANY MA and if you train it within a fighting environment, it will work in that environment.
    You and your people have shown it, Alan and his people have shown it.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Thanks Phil
    Fact is that those that have used WC in fights know that that it works.
    Fact is that EVERY MA system has to be trained to be used in a fight for it to work in a fight.
    It's the training, not the system.
    Take pretty much ANY MA and if you train it within a fighting environment, it will work in that environment.
    You and your people have shown it, Alan and his people have shown it.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When you do sport fighting you certainly need to train for the requirements of particular events
    so as not to gas out etc. The bjj folks are is superb shape and patient and calm- good qualities to have.
    But of the rules are unclear or there are no rules you have to be prepared to do what you need to do and not play a game specially the other fellow's game.

    And on the street.. alertness, awareness and decisiveness are ahead of technique of any kind and you don't need to film it...actually-you shouldn't.

    joy chaudhuri

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When you do sport fighting you certainly need to train for the requirements of particular events
    so as not to gas out etc. The bjj folks are is superb shape and patient and calm- good qualities to have.
    But of the rules are unclear or there are no rules you have to be prepared to do what you need to do and not play a game specially the other fellow's game.

    And on the street.. alertness, awareness and decisiveness are ahead of technique of any kind and you don't need to film it...actually-you shouldn't.

    joy chaudhuri
    Point made.
    I personally have never been a "fan" of the whole "street VS ring" thing, it makes no sense to me.
    If your stuff can't work under the best conditions ( the ring, a controlled environment with uniform rules), the chances of it working where there are no rules will be far less.
    BUT the street does require a bit of a different mindset in terms of alertness and awareness, no doubt about that.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #49
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    Having been in fights in the ring, street, and also having trained with very light gloves, with and without shoes, I will say that WC and most traditional arts are taught in a way that allows you to survive more "street-style" encounters. You might not like WC punching for a ring but train with very light gloves or bare knuckles with no wrist support and the punching style starts making a lot of sense.

    The kicking seems less effective in the ring. Well, look to Savate where shoes are used and you will see a lot of short snappy kicks because they wear shoes and use them as weapons.

    Even classical Muay Thai is deficient for contemporary Muay thai events. Although, in a bare knuckle scenario, classical Muay Thai with its lack of boxing hand techniques might be more effective in the long run as you won't break your hand. The modern ring is an environment that dictates certain skills and techniques. Insisting upon proving that classical WC works in that environment is just foolish. The environment dictates what you need to do.

    Although, I think a guy like Phil will agree that a heck of a lot transports from classical WC into the ring. He works with some professional boxers who seem to be of the same opinion. Short, quick punching and snappy accurate kicks can be an asset. The clinching, parries, and footwork are always useful as well.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 05-16-2011 at 12:30 PM.

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    As threads go--this too is zig zagging. To answer Matt's original questions- if I got it right..or atleast give some observations and opinions.Not arguing with others-nor preaching.

    1. Matt himself posted a shot of a wc guy who won againsts a MT guy.
    2. Lui Ming Fai's website has won against a MT guy and his site has a shot of him .
    3. I have seen several of Matt's sihings- not from his kwoon-in action against non wc guys in tournaments-that includes Dom, Danny and Nancy- no videos were involved.
    4. I got disqualified in a couple of matches against non wc guys for breaking the rules and excessive force..I was interested in only what works and it did. No pictures- no interest in trophies.
    5. I squared off against a MT instructor in NY in the 90s- to see what worked- and was satisfied.
    Ditto- in experimenting with grapplers and strikers.
    6. There are pics of wc against non wc that I have seen that are not on you tube.
    7. wing chun is not just conceptual- it is combative.
    8. My advice to anyone who has done wc for 8 years or so and don't have confidence in their wc-
    do something else. Wing chun is not the only way to combat- but I am happy and confident with it.Acceptance by others is not my goal.

    joy
    Wow, way to throw me under the bus Joy!

    I've tried to leave the lineage out of it and have even responded that this has nothing to do with my Sifu, Sigung, etc.... This is a personal revelation and yet again, the small print at the bottom that no one seemed to read, I simply asked "Anyone else here feel the same way?"

    I've also stated that I love WC and will probably never stop and that WC is a very effective self-defense system.

    I love how you say things too, like you aren't responding to me directly but choose an indirect path to save face. And it's definitely not about acceptance by others either Joy, and quite honestly, the indirect way you implied that to me offends me.

    Joy, you have a PhD, don't know what it's in, but hey, that means you're probably a smart guy.

    It doesn't take much after using a little scientific theory to see that, bottom line, either WC is one of the most difficult systems in the world to apply in a "pure" sense or it's simply not there, period, at least in the understanding that the WC community promotes. And I don't believe guys who fight and the actual technique isn't there, to be still fighting with WC

    And that was my point, simple as that, WC has it's place in fighting but I choose reality over fantasy. Doesn't mean I'm bashing WC or my teacher or your teacher.

    I am happy and confident with my WC Joy. I think I can apply "certain" things against a "worthy" opponent. I think "others" can too. And I think there is that rare exception, as well.

    But I've concluded that there's some serious limitations to WC, and that the WC community is somewhat responsible for promoting an idea that it's a flawless system, hence putting the average practitioner in a somewhat safety situation. And at the end of the day Joy, the lack of evidence supports me more than you.

    Matt

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Point made.
    I personally have never been a "fan" of the whole "street VS ring" thing, it makes no sense to me.
    If your stuff can't work under the best conditions ( the ring, a controlled environment with uniform rules), the chances of it working where there are no rules will be far less.BUT the street does require a bit of a different mindset in terms of alertness and awareness, no doubt about that.
    That's the point. A lot of people dismiss the ring as not being representative of what goes on in the street. This should immediately raise a flag as there are many factors that are essential in both environments: punching precision and power, timing, distance control, balanced and swift footwork, etc. Sanjuro's right, poor performance in the ring is not likely to improve dramatically in the street (unless a Glock is added to the mix...).
    Last edited by Buddha_Fist; 05-16-2011 at 12:34 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
    That's the point. A lot of people dismiss the ring as not being representative of what goes on in the street. This should immediately raise a flag as there are many factors that are essential in both environments: punching precision and power, timing, distance control, balanced and swift footwork, etc. Sanjuro's right, poor performance in the ring is unlikely going to improve dramatically in the street (unless a Glock is added to the mix...).
    My old TKD instructor once said:
    If you can't Knock a guy out with a kick wearing loose pants, after having stretched and warmed up, with a level floor, under ideal conditions, how the **** are you gonna do it on the street?

    That goes for pretty much every other technique you can think of.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    My old TKD instructor once said:
    If you can't Knock a guy out with a kick wearing loose pants, after having stretched and warmed up, with a level floor, under ideal conditions, how the **** are you gonna do it on the street?

    That goes for pretty much every other technique you can think of.
    Gotta steal that quote now!

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
    Gotta steal that quote now!
    Glad I can be of service

    I can say this, the vast majority of good ring fighters I know, ALL can handle themselves on the street, regardless of sport.
    I can't say the same for the majority of TMA I know that do NOT compete/train full contact.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    My old TKD instructor once said:
    If you can't Knock a guy out with a kick wearing loose pants, after having stretched and warmed up, with a level floor, under ideal conditions, how the **** are you gonna do it on the street?

    That goes for pretty much every other technique you can think of.
    The difference is in the ring, people are very conservative and not willing to commit. When you kick, your opponent will step back (because that's the way he trained). On the street, you will meet people who tries to knock your head off so bad that he will run into your kick.

    The following clip (at 4.26) that bear runs into the spear can happen in the street but difficult to make it to happen in the ring (may be your opponent in the ring is smarter?).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-16-2011 at 12:57 PM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Glad I can be of service

    I can say this, the vast majority of good ring fighters I know, ALL can handle themselves on the street, regardless of sport.
    Of course, timing, strength, power, endurance, and athleticism all transfer from situation to situation, but there are subtle differences between the ring, street, or from event to event. Let's say that you train for a kickboxing event that doesn't allow clinching and you get there and it is allowed or vice versa? You can't say that you wouldn't punch differently in a street setting. I know that I am much more careful about hitting elbows when I have super thin gloves on or no gloves as an example. I know for sure that I am not going to try to kick with the ball of my foot to the body without shoes but I would do it at the drop of the hat with shoes on.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The difference is in the ring, people are very conservative and not willing to commit. On the street, you will meet people who tries to knock your head off badly that he will run into your kick or punch. Sometime if you step out of your way, your over committed opponent may even fall of the cliff behind you. I find that "over committed' case just don't happen that often in the ring fight.
    seriously you need to watc h more amatuer MMA and kick boxing, what you say is true of the more professional fighters but every single amatuer fighter i have seen in their first few fight trys to take their opponents head off with their first punches (adrenleine can do funny things to even level headed guys)

    the main difference is in the ring you are normally fighting a trained conditioned opponent

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    Of course, timing, strength, power, endurance, and athleticism all transfer from situation to situation, but there are subtle differences between the ring, street, or from event to event. Let's say that you train for a kickboxing event that doesn't allow clinching and you get there and it is allowed or vice versa? You can't say that you wouldn't punch differently in a street setting. I know that I am much more careful about hitting elbows when I have super thin gloves on or no gloves as an example. I know for sure that I am not going to try to kick with the ball of my foot to the body without shoes but I would do it at the drop of the hat with shoes on.
    All that applies to those that don't fight full contact either, they are in the same boat with the difference being that those that do fight full contact are better prepared physically and mentally for hitting and getting hit and the effort that BOTH take.
    And KB does "allow" for the clinch by the way.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    KB does "allow" for the clinch by the way.
    It depends on where you fight but whether any one event allows something or not my point was about about being in an event that you weren't prepared for. I think that Wing Chunners can be in that boat sometimes because they have never competed and no one they know has either so they go in not quite ready. Even if you have most of the necessary attributes but you have quick snappy kicks that you like to use and don't have a sound heavy round house. You are at a disadvantage without shoes. For Wing Chunners it goes a bit beyond that subtly and they get discouraged and don't compete.


    Edit:
    I think that even if a Wing Chunner trained well and did everything correctly from a training perspective, mitts, bags, sparring, and conditioning. There are subtitles of Wing Chung that just aren't effective for certain types of ring events and have to be trained out while other things have to be added. Generally TMAists aren't well equipped for the transition.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 05-16-2011 at 01:12 PM.

  15. #60
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    Hey Matt, I agree that there is no flawless system.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

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