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Thread: Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    Whoa, slow down bro. I KNOW that the WC I do and teach works against stronger opponents, boxers, or whatever. This is also true of other WC people. Don't put all WC on the same plate.
    Sorry Phil, didn't mean to upset you. I think what you're doing is great! I'm not trying to put all WC onto the same plate either to make people feel bad. I was only trying to imply that the basic technique, the technique we all learn regardless of lineage, on it's own, mano to mano, will fail more times than not and that the concept alone is what matters more than anything.

    When I say WC has it's limitations, I mean the WC technique itself is limited, the tools, i.e. movements, that we all learned. What I believe they're more useful for and ultimately their purpose, is to understand the concept of martial skill so that whatever movement you ultimately do, regardless of style, you understand how to make application work. So, essentially when I said before that if the technique is not there than it's not WC but WC concept, I meant that it's simply not the WC technique, the movements that we all identify with, but the concept at best, hopefully!

    So, for me, personally, that's an evolution in thought and begs myself to evolve out of forcing a technique, so to speak, when fighting. I feel I'm really starting to understand Bruce Lee's break from WC technique, as a focus, and replacing it with WC concept.

    "When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow — you are not understanding yourself." - Bruce Lee

    "It’s not how much you have learned, but how much you have absorbed from what you have learned. It is not how much fixed knowledge you can accumulate, but what you can apply livingly that counts." - Bruce Lee

    "If you believe everything I say you will never be a good fighter." - Ip Man

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvbrown21 View Post
    Sorry Phil, didn't mean to upset you. I think what you're doing is great! I'm not trying to put all WC onto the same plate either to make people feel bad. I was only trying to imply that the basic technique, the technique we all learn regardless of lineage, on it's own, mano to mano, will fail more times than not and that the concept alone is what matters more than anything.

    When I say WC has it's limitations, I mean the WC technique itself is limited, the tools, i.e. movements, that we all learned. What I believe they're more useful for and ultimately their purpose, is to understand the concept of martial skill so that whatever movement you ultimately do, regardless of style, you understand how to make application work. So, essentially when I said before that if the technique is not there than it's not WC but WC concept, I meant that it's simply not the WC technique, the movements that we all identify with, but the concept at best, hopefully!

    So, for me, personally, that's an evolution in thought and begs myself to evolve out of forcing a technique, so to speak, when fighting. I feel I'm really starting to understand Bruce Lee's break from WC technique, as a focus, and replacing it with WC concept.

    "When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow — you are not understanding yourself." - Bruce Lee

    "It’s not how much you have learned, but how much you have absorbed from what you have learned. It is not how much fixed knowledge you can accumulate, but what you can apply livingly that counts." - Bruce Lee

    "If you believe everything I say you will never be a good fighter." - Ip Man
    Successful implementation of Ving Tsun, as is also the case of any other boxing method, requires knowing it in-and-out, its strong and weak points. You can only do this by doing reality checks through sparring. It is really an iterative process: you train to create fighting oriented habits and skills, you do the reality check through sparring, and you go back to the drawing board to continue iterating and sharpening your tools. No magic, just lots of hard work.

    Ving Tsun, the way it has been passed down to me and the way that I understand it, is concept-based in the sense that you cannot train applications for the million of situations/positions/distances that you will be during an altercation. You need something more powerful than that, and this is the practice of habits that are universally applicable no matter in what situation/position/distance you are.

    Ving Tsun has its strong points. One of these strong points being square facing (both upper body and hip positioning) to create a rapid exchange linked to forward pressure. Its structure also has its challenges. Two of them being punching power and reach when compared to a boxer's body mechanics. These challenges have to be recognized and worked against. In the specific case of reach, you will quickly realize that you need to develop swift footwork, as well as a good sense of timing, positioning, and distance. There is a long list of things to be looked out for and to be trained, but the bottomline is that the approach matters and that sparring is simply part of it.

  3. #78
    " I was only trying to imply that the basic technique, the technique we all learn regardless of lineage, on it's own, mano to mano, will fail more times than not and that the concept alone is what matters more than anything. "

    What 'technique' is that ?

    just a btw , I used VT in many fights and it never let me down.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 05-17-2011 at 06:22 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    " I was only trying to imply that the basic technique, the technique we all learn regardless of lineage, on it's own, mano to mano, will fail more times than not and that the concept alone is what matters more than anything. "

    What 'technique' is that ?

    just a btw , I used VT in many fights and it never let me down.
    I think the point the OP was trying to make is that WC is effective in low level fights but you don't see it being used against high level opponents.

    MMA in particular and all competitive based martial arts are pragmatic. In other words truth is what works. That means it is flexible because what works for me may not be what works for you. Appeals to lineage, history or tradition don't matter. Principles don't matter. It either works or it doesn't.

    If you aren't seeing what looks like pieces of your style in MMA matches then maybe you need to relook at your art.

    Personally I see some practical WC being used in the form of clinch fighting. To me that's what WC should like in a fight.

    Can you fight high level MMA with just WC? The answer is no. But the answer to that same question is no for boxing, MT, Judo, wrestling and BJJ also. However these arts tend to be more pragmatic across the board due to the fact that they train to fight within the bounds of their respective rule sets.
    Last edited by m1k3; 05-17-2011 at 06:48 AM. Reason: added a little more
    Mike

  5. #80
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    It's just my opinion but from what I have seen of many traditional schools people just don't train to actually use what they are being taught. Boxers and MMA people train to fight thats what they do they get into a ring and actually hit each other. Unfortunately for whatever reason many people practicing these combat arts just don't always train with the force necessary to actually use the art in a real fight. I know when I tried TKD the school was very focused on sport we sparred using tournament rules that I just hated and I eventually left. A couple guys I train with are wanting to join a local MMA fight in a few weeks. We went to sign them up and learn the rules and they were shocked by everything we couldn't use. No open hand strikes, no elbows and there was a lot more to remember. I wouldn't mind trying at some point but I am not in as good of shape as I would like. I have however been in a fight I have fought previous to my WC training not in any ring but to defend myself. WC like any art gives what you put into it train for real and it can help you but if you train with no pressure and only do predetermined routines your not going to get far. Why are there no Wing Chun fighters because not to many care to thats the reality of it. Out of everyone I have trained with only a couple I know would want to. My Sifu is in his 60s I believe he has no desire to do these things.

    I think as time goes there will be more but I don't know that it's going to be a major thing. I would love to see more Wing Chun schools get into actual MMA fights however I don't want them to turn into purely MMA arts. I have gotten a lot of crap online from BJJ guys and other MMA style people for doing Wing Chun. It gets old but what can you do? I know what I know and im trying to get better. Im not out to win trophies if I fought in the ring it would be more to test my skills. Im not sure that these fights really favor our art though. My guys are a bit worried with the rules being used in the up coming fight. We have also been told many of the fighters use mostly grappling. Many of the things we would do in situations are illegal in this fight. My friends are worried that they wont be able to keep from using an open hand they are also worried about people misjudging out techniques as elbow strikes or whatever. I told them go if your disqualified thats not a loss it simply shows we are different.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolf3001 View Post
    focused on sport ...
    There is nothing wrong to follow the sport rules, but the sport is only the training stage. It may build up bad habit if you stay there too long. Not going through the sport training is bad. Staying in sport training forever is bad too. This clip is an excellent example that one just take the sport a bit too far.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pUn8_sCRRI
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-17-2011 at 04:39 PM.

  7. #82
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    @mvbrown21 All martial arts have their limitations. Just like all combat weapons have theirs.
    You simply choose the right weapon for the job. We have a jump and turn in our BJD form. AT first I said that can't be Wing Chun. Then someone swung a pole at my legs. I jumped to avoid it without even thinking. I was taught that WC had no jumps but if I didn't I'd have been stuck in the ankle. What if that had been a sword or kwan do? I'll swing a pole at the legs of anyone who says that's wrong especially if they can't step back because of a wall or something behind them and see what they do.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    All martial arts have their limitations ... someone swung a pole at my legs.
    One Famous TCMA teacher 傅嘉賓(Fu Jia Bin) in Taiwan (He used to teach in my high school but that was before my time) once got into a fight against a group of harbor workers in Shanghai. After he had beaten up those harbor workers pretty bad, they threw rocks at him and sent him to hostiple. When Fu was in hostiple, he told his friends that his teacher didn't teach him "how to dodge rocks throwing".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-17-2011 at 07:48 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    One Famous TCMA teacher 傅嘉賓(Fu Jia Bin) in Taiwan (He used to teach in my high school but that was before my time) once got into a fight against a group of harbor workers in Shanghai. After he had beaten up those harbor workers pretty bad, they threw rocks at him and sent him to hostiple. When Fu was in hostiple, he told his friends that his teacher didn't teach him "how to dodge rocks throwing".
    That's a good one . . .
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    There is nothing wrong to follow the sport rules, but the sport is only the training stage. It may build up bad habit if you stay there too long. Not going through the sport training is bad. Staying in sport training forever is bad too. This clip is an excellent example that one just take the sport a bit too far.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pUn8_sCRRI
    I started TKD as a kid just before my 5th grade year. We practiced most of the techniques in the air little was done with a partner. Later we were paired up to spar we had so many pads I could hardly move. I was paired with an older kid who was a Black belt. This was a college class so everyone was older than I. It was never discussed that there were any rules so I just went full out on this person. All I remember is that I had them against a wall and they could hardly stop me. I was confused. I was then told that many of my strikes were illegal and at that point I was also disgusted. I left after my first grading and never returned. I had gone with my father several times to Karate and TKD tournaments as a spectator. I disliked the point sparring. I don't know all the types but for the most part they would start do a couple of attacks and then break. I sat there watching these fights thinking about what I would use against them. I actually came across a few kids in the past who had done Karate and despite my lack of training they were not very good.

    I don't believe many schools train their students well. I was asked to help set up a place for a martial arts demonstration for several local schools. I stayed and watched and they were handing out trophies and things for simply walking up and striking a shield. I know many were young children but it bothers me to see this sort of thing. I tried to teach a bit when I was in tech school as I was given permission to teach up to my level by my Sifu. Many of the guys I tried to teach didn't show up all the time and I would have to grab them from their dorms. I eventually gave up they felt it was to boring learning how to stand and move and throw a proper punch. One was a bit into Boxing and told me kicking was dirty. I had several Boxers ask me while in school to show them some things when they came at me before they could reach me I would simply throw a kick at knee level or whatever and pause. They thought this was dirty fighting I don't know how many times I heard this.

    Sometimes we get people who want to learn but they don't want to spar really they shy away from physical discomfort. I have a guy in class that is very robotic and doesn't really put any intent into his strikes or follow up much. I have a teen girl who starts getting upset if someone she is practicing with is sweaty. She told me she wants to learn to defend herself and she doesn't want to touch you or actually hit. I teas her a bit and she will attack but I find it hard to get these types to focus on doing any real training. I sparred the first guy once and didn't hold back much we were wearing head gear with face shields. I hit him several times and he felt I was going overboard. I sometimes go through techniques with him and he thinks im taking it to seriously as I follow up my routine with other strikes and stuff. He thinks im extreme with my use of techniques. He will block a strike in a very robotic slow manner and throw a punch and then stand there. He is ex military and I can't get over this I keep trying to tell him at his level he should be moving faster and following up his attacks. I meet a lot of people like this in martial arts circles. They practice very set routine things with a partner who never really tries to hit them.

  11. #86
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    You bet. It's a shame though that he doesn't train WC.
    Mike

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    You bet. It's a shame though that he doesn't train WC.
    He is executing a concept we use. It doesn't matter if he knows or not...
    Timing.,distance, opportunity ..

    Fighting with fists does work.

    Sadly many VT have lost chi-sao striking drills for touchy feely
    BS...leading to dirty clinch.with waddling hand chasing.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 05-19-2011 at 08:46 AM.

  14. #89
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    Kung Fu is good for you.

  15. #90
    Other way round to me...if you didn't say who's who and asked which does VT ...the other Guy is.

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