why all zones should be practiced.

[sanjuro_ronin]

but cant that be said about every fighter that ever fought? anderson likes to keep it standing, GSP take it to the ground, not many have an equal record of winning standing and on the ground

The problem becomes when fighters dont train their weaknesses as much as they train their strengthes.....or when they come across people simply better than them!


*************!

Yep, 100%.
We fight with our strengths and the weak link isn't our 'weknesses", its the inabiblity to keep it where we are strongest.
Why?
In my view we all have weakneses, no one has a compete game, it just doesn't happen, but many make the mistake of making their weak game their A game so as to develop it to the best they can.
Nothing wrong with that, in theory, but in practice if you are "designed" for Speed, don't focus on running marathons, get it?

[Frost]

Yep, 100%.
We fight with our strengths and the weak link isn't our 'weknesses", its the inabiblity to keep it where we are strongest.
Why?
In my view we all have weakneses, no one has a compete game, it just doesn't happen, but many make the mistake of making their weak game their A game so as to develop it to the best they can.
Nothing wrong with that, in theory, but in practice if you are "designed" for Speed, don't focus on running marathons, get it?

nope disagree 100% with you..... actually agree totally but i would say i think more make the mistake of thinking they can impose their A game so well they dont need to bring their B game up to a good enough level, or arent willing to stop training what they enjoy and what makes them great enough to actually become good enough at their weaknesses to impose their strengths on good competition

I am thinking of grapplers that grapple 5 times a week and do 1 or 2 stand up sessions even when their grappling in ADCC level and their striking sucks, and more to the point i am thinking of guys i actually know who are great standup fighters and prefer to training most of the week with other greath stand up guys, and only do a couple of sessions wrestling a week then wonder why in international comps they get submitted left and right

people forget how many years it took to get to the level they are in there A game, and arent prepared to put the same commitment into the rest of their training, and certainly dont want to cut down on the stuff the like doing

[sanjuro_ronin]

nope disagree 100% with you..... actually agree totally but i would say i think more make the mistake of thinking they can impose their A game so well they dont need to bring their B game up to a good enough level, or arent willing to stop training what they enjoy and what makes them great enough to actually become good enough at their weaknesses to impose their strengths on good competition

I am thinking of grapplers that grapple 5 times a week and do 1 or 2 stand up sessions even when their grappling in ADCC level and their striking sucks, and more to the point i am thinking of guys i actually know who are great standup fighters and prefer to training most of the week with other greath stand up guys, and only do a couple of sessions wrestling a week then wonder why in international comps they get submitted left and right

people forget how many years it took to get to the level they are in there A game, and arent prepared to put the same commitment into the rest of their training, and certainly dont want to cut down on the stuff the like doing

You have in a way, made my point.
A natural striker, coming in to the game, will never get tot he level of a natural grappler ( we can substitute the term preferred for natural is you like).
And to focus on grappling as a counter to grappling when they get to grappling is incorrect, since the better grappler will, quite typiclaly, win.
What the striker must do is get "good enough" in grappling to allow for his strong game ( striking) to be the deciding factor.
Reverse case for the grappler.

[Frost]

You have in a way, made my point.
A natural striker, coming in to the game, will never get tot he level of a natural grappler ( we can substitute the term preferred for natural is you like).
And to focus on grappling as a counter to grappling when they get to grappling is incorrect, since the better grappler will, quite typiclaly, win.
What the striker must do is get "good enough" in grappling to allow for his strong game ( striking) to be the deciding factor.
Reverse case for the grappler.

but what is good enough?

and how to you get there?

the biggest problem i see is not people spending too much time training their weaknesses, strikers trying to become grapplers for example but its spending too much time on their strengths and not admitting to themselves that they need to work on their weaknesses in order to become better than that and only paying lip services to training them.
You see it with Champio level BJJ guys not being able to stand long enough with strikers to get the takedown and vise verse

Will a Thai guy ever become an ADCC champ? no but if he continues to work on his strengths 4 times a week and his weaknesses only twice a week he will get owned at the higher levels in MMA.

There must come a time where you put your strengths on maintanence mood and really work on your weaknesses if you want to improve

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It's hard to put in an equal amount of training into each aspect, especially considering the amount of years and hard training it takes to be an A level competitor in both aspects of the game, so I believe you always have fighters who fall into the striker or the grappler category.

We may see a shift in this trend, however, with modern martial arts schools training both disciplines from the start with new people. So if martial artist A trains at a gym that does equal stand up with grappling you may see a trend of fighters that actually are equally balanced in skill. I still feel people will gravitate to one or the other with one being their strong point, but that's just my opinion.

[Frost]

It's hard to put in an equal amount of training into each aspect, especially considering the amount of years and hard training it takes to be an A level competitor in both aspects of the game, so I believe you always have fighters who fall into the striker or the grappler category.

We may see a shift in this trend, however, with modern martial arts schools training both disciplines from the start with new people. So if martial artist A trains at a gym that does equal stand up with grappling you may see a trend of fighters that actually are equally balanced in skill. I still feel people will gravitate to one or the other with one being their strong point, but that's just my opinion.

True, and im not argueing you should train and become equal in them, I am arguing too many fighters wont stop training what they enjoy long enough to become proficient enough in the other areas that they need

Their comes a time when you have developed enough skill in one area that you can drastically cut your training time and still maintain that level, this is true in all sports

And what I see is an unwillingness amongst some fighters to do this, if you have spent a decade training Thai 4 times a week and fighting, you will still maintain that level of skill or close to it with just one or two sessions a week, and you can use the time saved to become better at other areas, but guys are unwilling to stop doing what they like and are comfortable with

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue is that not enough fighters bring what they do best INTO what they do worse.
Going on with the striking grappling issue, strking skill takes more time to develop AND maintain than grappling skills.
Striking is more ballistic and explosive and potential more damaging and as such, one can't train full contact striking everyday, but one can roll all out everyday.
Generalizations yes, but for the moment we need to generalize a bit.
So how does a striker maintain or even develop his striking more is he is not devoting more hours to grappling?
Time being finite and all that, something HAS to give, right?
No.
You adapt the striking game to grappling.
You become a striker that can strike in ALL ZONES and you do that by grappling and understanding how and where your strikes will work under hose conditions.
It is still "striking training" but in a grappling "zone".
Sure you will learn and become proficient in submissions and positioning along the way, but your striking will also improve.

Or at least that has been my experience for myself.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

True, and im not argueing you should train and become equal in them, I am arguing too many fighters wont stop training what they enjoy long enough to become proficient enough in the other areas that they need

Their comes a time when you have developed enough skill in one area that you can drastically cut your training time and still maintain that level, this is true in all sports

And what I see is an unwillingness amongst some fighters to do this, if you have spent a decade training Thai 4 times a week and fighting, you will still maintain that level of skill or close to it with just one or two sessions a week, and you can use the time saved to become better at other areas, but guys are unwilling to stop doing what they like and are comfortable with

I see your point, as I am guilty of this myself. I enjoy stand up, I practice and train much more stand up, and I always will because that is where my enjoyment is at. However, I do not compete in MMA and train my grappling for self defense and for a balancing approach to my martial arts. I don't care how good I ever got at stand up, if I don't have at least some basic level of understanding of the clinch and grappling, I'm screwed.

That being said, I have noticed as I get older my enjoyment of wrestling and judo have become much stronger. I enjoy being able to feel comfortable in a zone (grappling) that I used to be very uncomfortable in. But with age I think comes one of two things. 1 people continue to train only what they know and are good at and get better in that realm while avoiding another 2. people train all aspects of all martial arts, maybe not equally, but moreso than in the past.

I have gotten to a point with my training where stand up, sparring, bag/mitt work, grappling, stance training, forms, breathing and chi kung, and all other martial related training methods are practiced and enjoyed. I'm not saying they are practiced equally, but all are practiced. But this is what gives me enjoyment and makes my training worthwhile.

[YouKnowWho]

but guys are unwilling to stop doing what they like and are comfortable with

This is very true indeed. The 1st step for any stand up grappler to "enolve" is to convert gi to no-gi (unless you are a wrestler). Even that, people had tried, failed, felt descourage, and never wanted to try again. Some people may feel that certain qi skill cannot be used in no-gi environment and their effort that had spent in the past might be wasted. That kind of thinking, "to hold on something that you feel comfortabl with" is the biggest stumbing block for "evolution".

For some unknown reson, it just seems to me that it's very nature for a grappler to learn some striking skill, but it's harder to convince a striker to learn some grappling skill no matter how hard you may have tried. May be all grapplers understand that they have to pass the striking range before they can get into the clinching range. To master some striking skill is a must. But some striker just believe that they will never have to get into the clinching range. That kind of unrealistic thinking make you feel like a chicken talks to a duck.

[Lucas]

who amongst this thread believe that this mindset should include weapons of various forms? ei: fire arms, blades, sticks, poles, etc.