Siu Lim Tao

[kowloonboy]

Hi, I am new to the form, and I am looking for answer for these these questions. In the Siu Lim Tao form, can the Fook Sao be used as a strike for application, as I have tried this on the wall bag and I believe it looks like a crane strike? Also after Fak Sao (movement 101 to 102 of the form), we get into the double Lan Sao, I know that Fak Sao is a strike, but is there another application when get back to the Lan Sao? So after Fak Sao we strike outward, when we return back to Lan Sao, is this an application for ridge hand inward as a strike to the back of the head or something? Please advise.

[YouKnowWho]

can the Fook Sao be used as a strike?

The WC 扶手(Fu Shou) is the same as the Mantis 刁手(Diao Shou). Both can be used for face striking.

[kowloonboy]

The WC 扶手(Fu Shou) is the same as the Mantis 刁手(Diao Shou). Both can be used for face striking.

Thanks. I have been trying to use Fu Shou on the wall bag, and I can see that it can be a strike. And after you have confirm that Diao Shou in Mantis is actually a strike, I can see that I can keep practicing the same technique as a strike. Thanks mate.

[Lee Chiang Po]

fook sao is not a strike.

[Phil Redmond]

NEVER use a fuhk sao for striking. Fuhk means control. Not strike. You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it. Now I know that some martial arts do it but they have problems with their hand when they get older. I know because my Okinawan Sensei couldn't even thread a needle because of his hand training.

[YouKnowWho]

You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it.

Not if you just use it to strike on your opponent's nose. You will break your opponent's nose before breaking your own hand. You may not be able to "kill" your opponent with that strike, but that strike can make your opponent's eyes watery, that will give you a chance to do a lot of other things.

Here is one example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE

[Phil Redmond]

Not if you just use it to strike on your opponent's nose. You will break your opponent's nose before breaking your own hand. You may not be able to "kill" your opponent with that strike, but that strike can make your opponent's eyes watery, that will give you a chance to do a lot of other things.

Here is one example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE

Nice "demo".

[Hendrik]

NEVER use a fuhk sao for striking. Fuhk means control. Not strike. You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it. Now I know that some martial arts do it but they have problems with their hand when they get older. I know because my Okinawan Sensei couldn't even thread a needle because of his hand training.

I totally agree with you Phil. mesh up the wrist is an extremely bad deal.

Back hand palm strike is not using the same mechanic as Fuhk Sao.

The white Crane metal hand is different type too.

So, Dont do it.

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig

start 5.22 that is not fook sau but Kong sau which could be used for strike but it is a very different mechanics even it might look close to fook sau. pay attention to my wrist and how I hold my hand and fingers.

[YouKnowWho]

It can be seen from 1.00 to 1.16 (from inside then tap). The combat application should have no "style boundary". If it works for you, use it, otherwise, don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg

[FongSung]

Hi Phil,
I watched a vdo of yours showing how to use Fuk Sao in Chi Sao with fwd intention but you did not use the hand (sao) but the inside of the forearm to control with. In this situation the "shape" of the hand could be said to be not "that" important so therefore could be used to strike with any hand shape - as the hand is going fwd anyway and forearm is doing the controlling. I think you even have shown this on vdo actually.. but as a second step?

If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?

The outside of the forearm can also be used to control. As you said recently the cantonese names are verbs / actions and not describing a specific hand shape / posn.

[k gledhill]

"If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?"
you may be onto something there

[Graham H]

Hi, I am new to the form, and I am looking for answer for these these questions. In the Siu Lim Tao form, can the Fook Sao be used as a strike for application, as I have tried this on the wall bag and I believe it looks like a crane strike?

It all depends which lineage you are involved in. Most people use fook sau for controlling arms. There are many many different ideas as to what Fook Sau actually defines. In my system Fook Sau is a punching concept, not an application. In the first part of SLT we are training the elbow to come in and forward which is not a natural punching way for human beings. The reason for the elbow having to come into the center and forward do not become apparent until Chum Kiu and the various drills that follow. SLT is not a fighting form it is an exercise. The hand is turned inwards to encourage the elbow to come into the center whilst we are slowly pushing the elbow around the body and forward. In essence fook sau trains a certain punch...........in my lineage of course.

Also after Fak Sao (movement 101 to 102 of the form), we get into the double Lan Sao, I know that Fak Sao is a strike, but is there another application when get back to the Lan Sao? So after Fak Sao we strike outward, when we return back to Lan Sao, is this an application for ridge hand inward as a strike to the back of the head or something? Please advise.

As I have said SLT is an exercise. Its abstract and is not for fighting people with. There is no application to bringing Fak Sau back to Lan Sau other than to train the next movement.....jum sau. The correct rotation of the elbow (back to the fixed elbow position) ready for the punch......i.e. elbows remain down for punching. You may ask why these actions are done together......its so we can attain balance in both arms. One helps the other. Doing these actions with one arm only after not too much time spent training can cause other problems.

An important error that this movement addresses is that when we rotate the elbow back down that we do not chop down with the forearms. The elbows just rotate and the punching position is then perfect.

It's up to you which idea you wish to follow and as you will see there are always conflicting ideas.....

GH

[Graham H]

"If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?"
you may be onto something there

Heaven forbid!!!

GH

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . . . .

As I have said SLT is an exercise. Its abstract and is not for fighting people with. . . . .

GH

There are many fighting applications in the SLT form. I teach them every class. One of the things I've learned over years is to not say what WC has and doesn't have. None of us were around during the development of WC so all we have to go on is what our Sifus say. They repeat to us what their Sifus said.