Goat Restraining or Pigeon Toed Stance

[duende]

I am gonna go out on a limb here and I hope it's not too much flame bait: But to fight in YGKYM ( feet parallel with toes turned in ) has to be the silliest thing I have ever heard of. Anyone who does that has never been in a real fight before. I have seen some lineages 'say' they fight in YGKYM but what they were really doing was standing in a prefight ready position, that was outside of the opponent's punching and kicking. I have never seen or heard of anyone stand in YGKYM go toe-to-toe blow-for-blow. I have seen fighting pigeon toed stances where one foot was forward and one back but that's not IMO YGKYM.

Of course fighting from a fixed position as you describe is ridiculous. You are skipping the entire strategy part of the equation here. On top of that, it's important to recognise how ygkym translates into multiple footworks via engagement angles and facings. And how it comes into play when broken structure of an opponent has been had and superior positioning/leverage comes into play.

Ygkym is where all other stances are born.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The stance is used in Silat to pin a downed opponents head just prior to sinking down and crushing thier wind pipe with it.

Having had it done to me in class, I am quite convinced you can kill a man with it.

[YouKnowWho]

The inward stance (both toes point in, both knees bend as close to the ground as possible) can be a very useful combat skill - shin bitting.

[LoneTiger108]

I have seen fighting pigeon toed stances where one foot was forward and one back but that's not IMO YGKYM.

Of course you're right to question a 'flat footed square on' stance and it's suitability for fighting. Every WCK student will at some point! But what makes you think the foot fwd example you give IS NOT YJKYM??

Ygkym is where all other stances are born.

I totally agree, coming from a WCK perspective. But I also think Taichi guys will hold a different view and use ping ma as their basic stance platform.

[CFT]

I totally agree, coming from a WCK perspective. But I also think Taichi guys will hold a different view and use ping ma as their basic stance platform.

I think duende means the stances used in WCK, not other types of kung fu.

[LoneTiger108]

I think duende means the stances used in WCK, not other types of kung fu.

I did catch that Chee

Even on my latest clip online I (casually!) express part of how I trained YJKYM using snake & crane concepts with some family from Europe. Done the same at the weekend with a brother and it is something I would recommend to anyone who wants to feel the liveliness of Wing Chun interactive methods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN1e_SvP3dQ

[trubblman]

Of course fighting from a fixed position as you describe is ridiculous. You are skipping the entire strategy part of the equation here. On top of that, it's important to recognise how ygkym translates into multiple footworks via engagement angles and facings. And how it comes into play when broken structure of an opponent has been had and superior positioning/leverage comes into play.

Ygkym is where all other stances are born.

I didnt really skip it. Its one thing to say YGKYM is the basis of other fighting stances. I am not disagreeing with that. But I think some are saying that YGKYM is a fighting stance in and of itself. My comment was directed only to that idea.

[LoneTiger108]

I didnt really skip it. Its one thing to say YGKYM is the basis of other fighting stances. I am not disagreeing with that. But I think some are saying that YGKYM is a fighting stance in and of itself. My comment was directed only to that idea.

Interesting

I personally think it IS both examples you mention here. It's the basis for all WCK horse, stepping, angling and shifting AND it can be used to fight with in a 'stationary' or fixed way BECAUSE its the basis for all WCK etc etc

[PalmStriker]

There is only one combat technique that I would use the "catch goat" stance for maximized power deliverance. Otherwise, I agree on it's foundation training purposefulness.

[YouKnowWho]

There is only one combat technique that I would use the "catch goat" stance for maximized power deliverance. Otherwise, I agree on it's foundation training purposefulness.

It can be used for "shin biting" but I don't think the form creator had thought about it.

[Sihing73]

It can be used for "shin biting" but I don't think the form creator had thought about it.

That is not the YJKM or Pigeon Toed/Goat Restraining stance in that picture.
Once one turns or steps the stance is no longer the one trained in the SNT.
I would expect most with an understanding of Wing Chun to already know that though.

Although one could argue that if you take something out of context you could make it fit into anything you want with the right window dressing.

[YouKnowWho]

Once one turns or steps the stance is no longer the one trained in the SNT.

Will you call this YJKM or Pigeon Toed/Goat Restraining stance?



- Both toes are pointing inward,
- both knees are bending inward.

The only difference is the stance is much wider. It's also a training stance for "shin bite". You use this training stance to reduce the angle between your foot and your lower leg. This way when you use it to bite on your opponent's leg, you can apply more pressure on your opponent's leg.

As for

- training stance, it's similar to the YJKM or Pigeon Toed/Goat Restraining stance.
- combat usage, it can be applied any way that you like.

IMO, you should not let the outlook of the training stance to limit your combat application.

[Sihing73]

Will you call this YJKM or Pigeon Toed/Goat Restraining stance?



- Both toes are pointing inward,
- both knees are bending inward.

The only difference is the stance is much wider. It's also a training stance for "shin bite". You use this training stance to reduce the angle between your foot and your lower leg. This way when you use it to bite on your opponent's leg, you can apply more pressure on your opponent's leg.

Definitely NOT Wing Chun.
There are several other difference than the width of the stance. The center of gravity is different and the groin is open a whole lot more than YJKM, just to begin.
Question, why post on a Wing Chun forum about things you seem to have little experience with?
Like I said before, I did Judo almost 35 years ago, even earned a Black Belt but I have not practiced Judo for at least 25 years.
Should I go post on a Judo forum and expect those who are actually training in Judo to listen to anything I say about Judo??
You trained Wing Chun but by your own admission it was back in the 70's so I would argue that while you may be good at the art you practice, it is not Wing Chun. Adding an element of something to what or how you practice does not mean the same thing as practicing a specific way. Just saying...............

Like I said earlier, you can say whatever you want and take things out of context.
If I add meat to broth it could be soup, then again it could be stew there is a world of difference between the two.

There is also a big difference between how a chef would cook and I would, has to do with a deeper understanding of the subject at hand.

[YouKnowWho]

Definitely NOT Wing Chun.

Of course I know it's not WC. Since people all agree that the "pigeon toed stance" is just a "training stance". The outlook of the training stance should not limit your combat application.

The day that you may consider to use your "pigeon toed stance" to stick your leg on your opponent's leg, and build your "leg bridge", you will understand that your "pigeon toed stance" could have more usage than you may think. It's just a "suggestion" for a very valuable combat usage, "build the leg bridge" since so far nobody has mentioned about this so far.

It's just a suggestion and nothing needed to argue about.

[LFJ]

to stick your leg on your opponent's leg, and build your "leg bridge",

Leg bridge? As if trying to stick and build bridges with your arms wasn't crazy enough...