Wing Chun Lineage with Chin Na and Throw

[dirtyrat]

The major part of the throw is not the hand movement but the body movement. The throwing Shenfa (body method) requires:

- bend forward to touch your head to your knee.
- bend head down and kick leg up.
- spin your whole body along your spine axis.
- spin your upper body in one direction and spin your low body in opposite direction.
- ...

Those principles and trainings are missing in longfist, mantis, Baji, Tong bei, Zimer, WC, Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, ...

Its missing because most of today's kung fu systems focus too much on forms training and not enough on basic fighting skills, tactics and strategies. The Chinese are notoriously secretive even among their own. Frankly IMHO much is lost in kung fu. Which is why many TCM practitioners can't hold their own against other MA. They only got pieces of an incomplete puzzle; the 'classical mess' Bruce Lee referred.

[YouKnowWho]

Its missing because most of today's kung fu systems focus too much on forms training and not enough on basic fighting skills, tactics and strategies. The Chinese are notoriously secretive even among their own. Frankly IMHO much is lost in kung fu. Which is why many TCM practitioners can't hold their own against other MA. They only got pieces of an incomplete puzzle; the 'classical mess' Bruce Lee referred.

Agree with you 100% there. Today, people only care about how many forms that they train. They don't look at TCMA from the angle of kicking, punching, locking, and throwing.

The 1st time that I saw a MT flying knee, I told myself that I wanted it even it wasn't in my style.

[dirtyrat]

The second section of SLT and Chum Kiu as a whole contain some pretty simple grappling dynamics.

Fan Sau combined with a cutting sweep is nice. This guy starts the tech as I would then moves into lots of striking... why not just throw the guy? Or hit him AND throw him? That's my understanding of the essence of Wing Chun - the violent takedown.Lan Sau has similar options: when combined with Chum Kiu's turning, a single Lan sao can be part of a neck throw and a double can be bear-hug type throw.

Totally agree with you.

[dirtyrat]

Agree with you 100% there. Today, people only care about how many forms that they train. They don't look at TCMA from the angle of kicking, punching, locking, and throwing.

The 1st time that I saw a MT flying knee, I told myself that I wanted it even it wasn't in my style.

Make it yours . I feel that a system's forms shouldn't dictate your fighting preferences.

[Liddel]

I can only comment on my own school/lineage - we do not have any Chi Na to the true extent of the term. Grabbing and seizing limbs is counter to our fight strategy/mentality and breaks a major rule for us of using two hands on one etc.

However there is the odd elbow lock which tends to be momentary transition rather than a sunk lock like a 'come along' tech. Those of us that do employ locks have picked them up from sources other than VT.

Many VT systems use a traditional VT grab most often seen in a drill called Lop Sau where the thumb is not employed in the grab to avoid getting caught with Chi Na techs etc

We do not employ any throws either mainly due to range and with a focus on trips and sweeps rather than utilizing the hips to unbalance an opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

There are only around 40 different joint locks. It may take 8 hours to learn (assume you can learn 10 joint locks in 2 hours session). The joint lock is easy to learn but hard to apply (it's easier to apply in the ground game).

There are more than 60 categories of throws, a total over 400 throws. Both "踢(Ti) - foot sweep" and "别(Bie) - leg block" categories all contain more than 30 different way to apply. It may take you more than your life time to learn and master those 400 throws. But you only need to master 4 to 6 throws to use in combat.

It doesn't take that much time to bring both locking skill and throwing skill into your system no matter which style that you may come from. Both locking and throwing are not styles. It can be added into any TCMA style and there will be no conflict at all.

[Sihing73]

Trying to find locking and throwing in the WC system is almost the same as trying to find kicking and punching in the Judo system. Both make little sense IMO.

Hmmm,

Such a broad statement for both arts

I guess you are unfamiliar with Atemi Wazi which is taught in some methods of Judo.

Sometimes, to say something makes little sense shows how little sense one actually has

[YouKnowWho]

I guess you are unfamiliar with Atemi Wazi which is taught in some methods of Judo.

Will you choose Judo as if you want to learn your striking skill?

[Sihing73]

Will you choose Judo as if you want to learn your striking skill?

I did Judo first and earned my Black Belt. I found it to be quite a good martial art and, when incorporating strikes, to be effective for the street also. I think one of the main benefits was the conditioning. Spend a lot of time falling and throwing and you will be used to contact and very well conditioned.

However, to answer your question, Judo is not primarily a striking art so no I would not take Judo if I wanted to learn to strike. I was introduced to WC by a guy I worked with when I was competing and thought I was pretty hot. He took me down quite a few notches.

Still, Judo, with Atemi Wazi, which is part of traditional training, is very effective.

[kowloonboy]

Thanks to all which have gave me more knowledge in the understanding of Wing Chun.

From the replied so far, I see that Chin Na, Throw, or control does exist in Wing Chun. Which is good. There are also some which suggested that if I apply the Wing Chun principle, and if I can Chin Na, throw or control, there is nothing wrong in adding into my Wing Chun style.

My new question is this, if I stick with the Wing Chun principle, and if I see that there are other applications which might be able to applied to Wing Chun, I can use it? Because that is my Wing Chun? Also from what I have seen so far (Don't flame me). A few of Yip Man's student's Wing Chun is now know as WSL Wing Chun, William Cheung Wing Chun, Ho Kam Ming Wing Chun, and so on. They are all different because that is how their interpretation in Wing Chun. So when I am good enough one day to teach, it will become Kowloon Boy's Wing Chun? (Not my real name of course, but for example) So I can add things into my Kowloon Boy Wing Chun? Is this how it work? As I seen that Sifu Augustine Fong and Sifu Gary Lam have a lot of Chin Na in their Wing Chun as seen from clips in this thread. Is this what it meant by my Wing Chun is not your Wing Chun?

[kowloonboy]

From Wikipedia:
Principles

The eight principles of Wing Tsun form a system of aggressive self-defense that allows one to adapt immediately to the size, strength and fighting style of an attacker. There are many ways to express the principles, since they are essentially very simple. However, it takes years of performing the forms and practicing chi sao with a knowledgeable instructor to train the body to follow the principles reflexively and to understand their applications in specific situations.

As well as describing the progression of a self-defense response, the strength principles also describe the progression a WingTsun student must follow over years of training: first, form training and a great deal of punching to learn to be relaxed in a fight and to (counter intuitively) punch without tension; second, countless hours of chi sao training to be able to yield to — and exploit — the attacker's strength; finally, strength training specific to WT to increase punching and striking power.
Fighting Principles

Go forward (問路尋橋手先行) Advance immediately in order to establish contact with the limbs (allowing for Chi Sao reflexes to take over) or — even better — to strike first. This counter intuitive reaction will often surprise the attacker, and moves the fight into a close distance in which tactile reflexes will dominate over visual reactions, where the Wing Tsun practitioner is likely to have an advantage.
Stick to the opponent (手黐手,無埞(地方)走) If you are unable to strike and disable your opponent, but instead make contact with some part of his body (other than his face, throat, etc.), stick to it. Often this will be an opponent's arm; if you maintain constant contact with his arms, how can he launch an attack at you without your knowing? This applies for the time only when the opponent is blocking your shortest way of attack. Once there is opportunity, you give up sticking, and go in with your attack (flow).
Yield to a greater force (用巧勁，避拙力-即借力） Since one cannot expect to be stronger than every potential attacker, one must train in such a way as to be able to win even against a stronger opponent. Chi Sao teaches the reflexes necessary to react to an opponent's attacks. When an attack is simply stronger than yours, your trained reflexes will tell your body to move out of the way of the attack and find another angle for attack.
Follow through (迫步追形) As an extension of the first principle, if an opponent retreats, a WingTsun practitioner's immediate response is to continue moving forward, not allowing the opponent to recover and have an opportunity to reconsider his strategy of attack. Many styles that rely on visual cues prefer to step back and wait and time their attacks, as commonly seen in sport and tournament fighting.

Energy Principles

Give up your own Force One needs to be relaxed in order to move dynamically and to react to the actions of an opponent. When you are tense, your "own force" acts as a parking brake—you must disengage it first before you can move quickly.
Get rid of your opponent's Force This is similar to the third fighting principle. When an attacker wants to use strength to overpower a fighter, the response is not to try to overcome strength with strength but to nullify this force by moving your attacker's force away from you or to move yourself away from it.
Use Your Attacker's Force against him Take advantage of the force your opponent gives you. If an opponent pulls you toward him, use that energy as part of your attack. Or if an opponent pushes the left side of your body, you can act as a revolving door and use that force in an attack with your right arm.
Add Your Own Force In addition to borrowing power from your attacker, you can add your own force in an attack when your hand is free.

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So if other applications, which can be added without breaching the principles then it is still Wing Chun?

[YouKnowWho]

my Wing Chun is not your Wing Chun?

If your WC is your teacher's WC, you are only a good "copy machine". You will have no contribution to the TCMA world. You train TCMA for you and not for your teacher or for your style.

The following principles are general TCMA principles (not only for the WC system). You can go a bit deeper than that.

1. Go forward (問路尋橋手先行) - you have to build leg bridge before you can build arm bridge.

2. Stick to the opponent (手黐手,無埞(地方)走) - Tinjin can go both ways. It's better to stick, break, enter then just stick there too long.

3. Yield to a greater force (用巧勁，避拙力-即借力）- You have to give force before you can borrow force.

4. Follow through (迫步追形) - To run your opponent down is better than just to chass him.

So if other applications, which can be added without breaching the principles then it is still Wing Chun?

In the Zimen system, there is a principle "乱抽麻(Luan Chou Ma) - pull thread heads off your opponent's shirt" that can be integrated into your WC chain punches very well. Instead of thinking about striking out, you think about pulling your striking hands back as fast as you can instead. This will increase your chain punches speed big time.

[kowloonboy]

If your WC is your teacher's WC, you are only a good "copy machine". You will have no contribution to the TCMA world. You train TCMA for you and not for your teacher or for your style.

The following principles are general TCMA principles (not only for the WC system). You can go a bit deeper than that.

1. Go forward (問路尋橋手先行) - you have to build leg bridge before you can build arm bridge.

2. Stick to the opponent (手黐手,無埞(地方)走) - Tinjin can go both ways. It's better to stick, break, enter then just stick there too long.

3. Yield to a greater force (用巧勁，避拙力-即借力）- You have to give force before you can borrow force.

4. Follow through (迫步追形) - To run your opponent down is better than just to chass him.


In the Zimen system, there is a principle "乱抽麻(Luan Chou Ma) - pull thread heads off your opponent's shirt" that can be integrated into your WC chain punches very well. Instead of thinking about striking out, you think about pulling your striking hands back as fast as you can instead. This will increase your chain punches speed big time.

Thanks for passing on this knowledge and wisdom. Cheers.

[Runlikehell]

Yes, many thanks for sharing this information.

[wtxs]

The second section of SLT and Chum Kiu as a whole contain some pretty simple grappling dynamics.

Fan Sau combined with a cutting sweep is nice. This guy starts the tech as I would then moves into lots of striking... why not just throw the guy? Or hit him AND throw him? That's my understanding of the essence of Wing Chun - the violent takedown.

The goal WC is to end an confrontation quickly.

What you had suggested would give your opponent an second chance at you ... I would not consider that to be the essence of WC ... just MHO.