Wing Chun Lineage with Chin Na and Throw

[Wayfaring]

A Wing Chun sifu who I usually don't see eye to eye with once answered the question "Is chin na part of wing chun?"

With; "Chin Na is part of kung fu"

His answer stuck with me and has made more and more sense to me over time as I've grown to understand things better and as I've spent time with Chinese sifus who don't have the hangups that their western counterparts sometimes do with "what's traditional".

So the understanding is that if something fits in to the overall fight game that you need to develop it regardless of individual attachment to style.

And if you call it "kung fu" then apparently western people who do Chinese arts can accept that fact too.

Of course if you label that "MMA" then they immediately grow less intelligent....

[ShortBridge]

I don't think that's exactly right. But, lets not argue about MMA, that never goes anywhere.

[Wayfaring]

I don't think that's exactly right. But, lets not argue about MMA, that never goes anywhere.

So the person you were quoting, when making the statement "chin na is part of kung fu" did not intend for a person to pick up that skillset from other places than wing chun?

Or what "don't you think is exactly right"?

To me it was fairly clear and obvious that this was a veiled instruction to cross-train.

You know, kind of like Yip Man did. Kind of like most of the "masters" referenced do.

But hey, if I misunderstood the lesson, please clear it up for me. I'm all ears.

[Vajramusti]

So the understanding is that if something fits in to the overall fight game that you need to develop it regardless of individual attachment to style.

((Not an accurate representation of what was said. See Jon's post and mine))Joy


Of course if you label that "MMA" then they immediately grow less intelligent....

((Don't care to get deflected to a discussion of MMA. No reflection on those who do MMA))Joy

[Wayfaring]

((Don't care to get deflected to a discussion of MMA. No reflection on those who do MMA))Joy

Well in that case let's have a good healthy discussion of the necessity of Chin Na techniques within overall "kung fu" and nobody will mention the dreaded "M" acronym.

I won't deflect the conversation too far to point out the mind-numbingly obvious fact that once you do "wing chun" with "another unnamed kung fu discipline that does chin na", you in fact are "mixing" your martial arts. Oh, horror.

But hey, let's not discuss those people. You know, the ones who mix their martial arts. And of course it's no reflection on "those people".

In fact, let's just skip over the mindset akin to racism and just discuss this on the merits.

What merits, you say? Oh, that you might need to develop some skills in clinch, throw, joint locks, takedowns. Oh, we can discuss those. But we have to make sure that we use Chinese terms now. In case we might gravitate too close to discussions related to "those people".

[Wayfaring]

Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

Oh really. And I suppose you practice these on a regular basis, right? Otherwise how can you obtain skill at them? So, out of say 2 times a week practice, what percentage of time would you say you work with chin na, cum na, cum la and / or throws?

And of your students, what percentage of them would you say, including the 3 other instructors you have listed, could engage in chin na, cum na cum la or throws successfully against a skilled opponent?

Or rather after reconsideration, is this statement a lot of hot air and there are a very low percentage of wing chun persons that are taught properly techniques relating to chin na, cum na, cum la and throws? And of those most of them learn this via cross-training in other arts that specialize in these techniques and approaches?

[Vajramusti]

Oh really. And I suppose you practice these on a regular basis, right? Otherwise how can you obtain skill at them? So, out of say 2 times a week practice, what percentage of time would you say you work with chin na, cum na, cum la and / or throws?

And of your students, what percentage of them would you say, including the 3 other instructors you have listed, could engage in chin na, cum na cum la or throws successfully against a skilled opponent?

Or rather after reconsideration, is this statement a lot of hot air and there are a very low percentage of wing chun persons that are taught properly techniques relating to chin na, cum na, cum la and throws? And of those most of them learn this via cross-training in other arts that specialize in these techniques and approaches?

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Given the tone of the above post - not worth an answer, Would be a waste of time.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

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Given the tone of the above post - not worth an answer, Would be a waste of time.

joy chaudhuri

No Joy, what is a waste of time is the condescending attitude which you are portraying here.

Why it is a waste of time is because the general public already knows you are full of hot air when you state that properly trained wing chun personnel are adept at chin na, throws and other grappling and ground related arts.

Why they know this is that there exists plenty of evidence supporting the arts that are adept in those things. And zero evidence supporting your conjecture.

So for you it is simpler to denigrate me and say I'm not worth conversing with.

Talk to the wind. That's where your arguments are, and where your non-existent skills in areas you don't train are.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1104096]No Joy, what is a waste of time is the condescending attitude which you are portraying here.

Why it is a waste of time is because the general public already knows you are full of hot air when you state that properly trained wing chun personnel are adept at chin na, throws and other grappling and ground related arts.

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Don't waste your time or mine.

[Vajramusti]

I am new to Wing Chun, and I read there are Chin Na and Throws in Wing Chun. But also I have read that Chin Na and Throws doesn't exist in Wing Chun.

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks

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kowloonboy- are you confused enough by the course of the thread?

Some folks cliam they do throws or chin-na with their wing chun training when the timing or necessity is there. Wing chun is opportunistic and the tool box is large.

Throws for instance involve manipulation of balance and good wing chun training involves control and manipulation of balance. Different styles- aikido, judo etc have their own approach to balance: ditto for for wrestling, football etc..

Similarly a wing chun person with good structure, balance and mobility themselves can upend a person when the opportunity is there and it is the optimum alternative as opposed to striking.
The third form has some motions that can be sharpened for this purpose.

On cum na..the situation has its parallels-the tool box for joint or cavity control is also extensive..
variations and applications of lop sao, jip sao, and other two handed combinations- dai bong with lop, lop and gum are few that come to mind..even the hand closing after huen at the end of each section of forms together with other motions can be used for seizing, controlling and breaking.

No easy answers.

Good luck with your training.Ignore the noise and the put downs.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

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Some folks cliam they do throws or chin-na with their wing chun training when the timing or necessity is there. Wing chun is opportunistic and the tool box is large.

Throws for instance involve manipulation of balance and good wing chun training involves control and manipulation of balance. Different styles- aikido, judo etc have their own approach to balance: ditto for for wrestling, football etc..

Similarly a wing chun person with good structure, balance and mobility themselves can upend a person when the opportunity is there and it is the optimum alternative as opposed to striking.
The third form has some motions that can be sharpened for this purpose.

While this is true it is a far cry from skill in these areas. As a simple test of this fact, trot your class on across the campus to the ASU wrestlers practice. See how many of those individuals you can manipulate balance on and upend.

On cum na..the situation has its parallels-the tool box for joint or cavity control is also extensive..
variations and applications of lop sao, jip sao, and other two handed combinations- dai bong with lop, lop and gum are few that come to mind..even the hand closing after huen at the end of each section of forms together with other motions can be used for seizing, controlling and breaking.

Grasping at straws - no pun intended. "Can be used" and "developed into an effective skillset" are worlds apart.

Good luck with your training.Ignore the noise and the put downs.

joy chaudhuri

Ignoring the air of superiority and refusal to engage in meaningful exchanges.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am new to Wing Chun, and I read there are Chin Na and Throws in Wing Chun. But also I have read that Chin Na and Throws doesn't exist in Wing Chun.

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks

My instructor has an instructorship in Chin Na so there was an emphasis on it with our Wing Chun. It is the basis for a lot of our nonlethal self-defense. All wrist locks and so forth are Chin Na. You could call it WC. I suppose, but a lot of people just think of it is Chin Na elements within WC.