Wing Chun Lineage with Chin Na and Throw

[Phil Redmond]

What he did was take out the parts that couldn't be practiced full force in order to make it more effective.

He proved his point in a match-up between older styles of Jiu-jitsu and Judo at the Tokyo police headquarters in the late 1800's. After that, Judo was named the Japanese national martial art and became the official art used by law enforcement.

Supposedly Kano actually became disappointed that sport judo started to become too watered down as a sport.

Then I stand corrected. Thanks...

[Frost]

A fight is a fight. You take what's available. Also Jigaro Kano didn't develop Judo as a fighting system. Wing Chun is a fighting system. It'd be better to say that there is no Cum Na in the Wing Chun you do than to say that it doesn't exist. I know it exists for me and other WC people.

already said i know but what kano did was develop a fighting system that was so good during the police trials his guys killed a few of the deadly JJJ guys, thats why the police took it as their official art

[kowloonboy]

Wing Chun is a fighting system. It'd be better to say that there is no Cum Na in the Wing Chun you do than to say that it doesn't exist. I know it exists for me and other WC people.

I have just finished reading the "Complete Wing Chun - The definitive guide to Wing Chun's History and Traditions by Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie, and Y. Wu" And I found that there are lineages in Wing Chun does have techniques for uprooting (Throwing?), controlling, choking, joint locking, counter joint locking, moving stance take down and sweeping.

I think I need to read the book again, and make notes. Because there are so much to take in.

[Mulong]

A classical martial artist has to be able to dismantle his discipline down to its cores, i.e., primary movements, which in Chinese martial arts (Zhongguowushu/中国武术) refer to as siji/四击 or the four attacks, which consist of:


Da/打:
Da refers to as striking with any part of the upper torso; be it with the first, palm, shoulder, hip, head, etc.

Ti/踢:
Ti refers to kicks; therefore, strikes generated by the legs; be it kicks or knees.

Na/拿:
Na refers to holds, which is actually short for qinna/擒拿 or seize and hold which consist of varies form of manipulating of the human anatomy:
•Dividing muscles or fenjin/分筋 (The theory of tearing muscles)
•Grabbing muscles or zhuajin/抓筋; (The theory of grasping muscles)
•Cross bone or cuogu/错骨 (The theory of breaking bones)
•Point hole or dianxue/点穴 (The theory of hitting pressure points)
•Hold pulse or namei/拿脉 (The theory of holding arteries)
•Closing air biqi/闭气 (The theory of closing the meridian line/pass-through web (jingluo/经络)

Shuai/摔
Shuai refers to throwing-down, which is actually short for shuaijiao/摔跤 or throwing-wrestling, which consist of varies take-downs:

•Holding foot throwing or baojiaoshuai/抱脚摔 (Theories/applications consisting of leg grasp.)
•Going over one’s back, holding waist throw or guobeiyaoshuai/過背抱腰摔 (Theories/applications consisting of any throw over ones’ back, or lifting someone via their waist.)
•Hooking foot throwing or goujiaoshuai/勾脚摔 (Theories/applications consisting of leg trips or sweeps.)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some say that he took the more violent aspects of Jujitsu out so that his art could be used in competitions and taught in schools.

He kept those in for the advanced levels.
Kano thought, and was proven correct, that if you train the basic and "safer" moves that can be done at full force VS a resisteing opponent, you become a better fighter, quicker and with THAT CORE you can then apply those techniques that are "too dangerous" to apply at full speed in training.
In other words and applying it to WC:
You take punching and palm to the head and torso, develop it at full speed and full force VS a resisting opponent, then you take those skills and attributes and you can apply them to a punch or open hand to the neck or throat without having to actually hit anyone in the throat full force.

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCkJ8...layer_embedded

[Lee Chiang Po]

Yes Kano developed judo as a fighting system. That was his whole original philosophy.

He turned traditional jujutsu into a more realistic fighting system by emphasizing randori and groundwork.

No, No, No. He developed judo simply for compitition. It is not a fighting system, but it can be. You will not improve on real Jiujitsu. Not by removing all the good stuff.

[Frost]

No, No, No. He developed judo simply for compitition. It is not a fighting system, but it can be. You will not improve on real Jiujitsu. Not by removing all the good stuff.

of course not, its not like the organised competition came years later ...and its not like he destroyed the JJJ clubs in the police trials, and his sport guys ended up killing a few of the JJJ guys, and the domination was so total the police accepted Judo as their offical martial art

i mean non of that is documentated fact or anything

[Vajramusti]

I am new to Wing Chun, and I read there are Chin Na and Throws in Wing Chun. But also I have read that Chin Na and Throws doesn't exist in Wing Chun.

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks

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Another long and wandering thread!!


Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

So the answer is depends on who, what,when ,where. A mechanical and only technique based sub style is a different matter. But then- people like to argue.

A sense of the structure of joints and a sense of balance and controlling both are part and parcel of wing chun.

But the art has spread quite unevenly-hence the reference to who, what, when and where.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

So the answer is depends on who, what,when ,where

Agreed. Good post Joy But I would also add the 'why' factor!

[faxiapreta]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another long and wandering thread!!


Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

So the answer is depends on who, what,when ,where. A mechanical and only technique based sub style is a different matter. But then- people like to argue.

A sense of the structure of joints and a sense of balance and controlling both are part and parcel of wing chun.

But the art has spread quite unevenly-hence the reference to who, what, when and where.

joy chaudhuri

What is a mechanical and only technique based sub style.

[ShortBridge]

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Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

So the answer is depends on who, what,when ,where. A mechanical and only technique based sub style is a different matter. But then- people like to argue.

A sense of the structure of joints and a sense of balance and controlling both are part and parcel of wing chun.

But the art has spread quite unevenly-hence the reference to who, what, when and where.

joy chaudhuri

Well, said.

A Wing Chun sifu who I usually don't see eye to eye with once answered the question "Is chin na part of wing chun?"

With; "Chin Na is part of kung fu"

His answer stuck with me and has made more and more sense to me over time as I've grown to understand things better and as I've spent time with Chinese sifus who don't have the hangups that their western counterparts sometimes do with "what's traditional".

The facts (according to lowly me) are that there are clear examples of some Chin Na in wing chun. Simply; Lap Sao is chin na. There are others, but not an extensive vocabulary spelled out as a ju jistsu-type system. That doesn't mean that before we (westerners) started writing down and debating the purity of ciricula that Chinese practitioners following very traditional examples wouldn't have found and used this connection and taken it wherever made sense to them.

Is breathing part of wing chun? Most "traditional" wing chun schools that I've had a chance to exchange with don't "teach" a prescriptive set of breathing with wing chun. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have been something a traditional, advancing or advanced practitioner back in the day wouldn't have done. Same with a lot of things; physical exercise, meditation...

Whether someone chooses to develop themselves and their students in that direction is a choice. I don't think either choice is more or less legitimate.

But, that's just my humble opinion, of course. I make no claims of expertise actual or implied. It's just where asking myself that question for the last 15 years or so has led me. I may feel differently some day. I don't expect this question to be "resolved" for everyone ever.

[Wayfaring]

A Wing Chun sifu who I usually don't see eye to eye with once answered the question "Is chin na part of wing chun?"

With; "Chin Na is part of kung fu"

His answer stuck with me and has made more and more sense to me over time as I've grown to understand things better and as I've spent time with Chinese sifus who don't have the hangups that their western counterparts sometimes do with "what's traditional".

So the understanding is that if something fits in to the overall fight game that you need to develop it regardless of individual attachment to style.

And if you call it "kung fu" then apparently western people who do Chinese arts can accept that fact too.

Of course if you label that "MMA" then they immediately grow less intelligent....

[ShortBridge]

I don't think that's exactly right. But, lets not argue about MMA, that never goes anywhere.

[Vajramusti]

So the understanding is that if something fits in to the overall fight game that you need to develop it regardless of individual attachment to style.

((Not an accurate representation of what was said. See Jon's post and mine))Joy


Of course if you label that "MMA" then they immediately grow less intelligent....

((Don't care to get deflected to a discussion of MMA. No reflection on those who do MMA))Joy