Wing Chun Lineage with Chin Na and Throw

[Wayfaring]

((Don't care to get deflected to a discussion of MMA. No reflection on those who do MMA))Joy

Well in that case let's have a good healthy discussion of the necessity of Chin Na techniques within overall "kung fu" and nobody will mention the dreaded "M" acronym.

I won't deflect the conversation too far to point out the mind-numbingly obvious fact that once you do "wing chun" with "another unnamed kung fu discipline that does chin na", you in fact are "mixing" your martial arts. Oh, horror.

But hey, let's not discuss those people. You know, the ones who mix their martial arts. And of course it's no reflection on "those people".

In fact, let's just skip over the mindset akin to racism and just discuss this on the merits.

What merits, you say? Oh, that you might need to develop some skills in clinch, throw, joint locks, takedowns. Oh, we can discuss those. But we have to make sure that we use Chinese terms now. In case we might gravitate too close to discussions related to "those people".

[Wayfaring]

Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

Oh really. And I suppose you practice these on a regular basis, right? Otherwise how can you obtain skill at them? So, out of say 2 times a week practice, what percentage of time would you say you work with chin na, cum na, cum la and / or throws?

And of your students, what percentage of them would you say, including the 3 other instructors you have listed, could engage in chin na, cum na cum la or throws successfully against a skilled opponent?

Or rather after reconsideration, is this statement a lot of hot air and there are a very low percentage of wing chun persons that are taught properly techniques relating to chin na, cum na, cum la and throws? And of those most of them learn this via cross-training in other arts that specialize in these techniques and approaches?

[Wayfaring]

I don't think that's exactly right. But, lets not argue about MMA, that never goes anywhere.

So the person you were quoting, when making the statement "chin na is part of kung fu" did not intend for a person to pick up that skillset from other places than wing chun?

Or what "don't you think is exactly right"?

To me it was fairly clear and obvious that this was a veiled instruction to cross-train.

You know, kind of like Yip Man did. Kind of like most of the "masters" referenced do.

But hey, if I misunderstood the lesson, please clear it up for me. I'm all ears.

[ShortBridge]

You did misunderstand, but I'm not getting sucked into this argument. There is no part of me that things you may in fact be trying to understand.

I'll point out, though that I never said it was necessary to do Chin Na. As a matter of fact, if you read what I wrote without agenda, you'll see that I said it was a choice, that's far from saying it's necessary. I also never said you go get these techniques from another kung fu system.

You're reading what you want to read and you're going to continue arguing for what you want to argue for. I'm fine with you training however you want to train, so I'm not sure why this is necessary, unless you're trying to influence me, which is just as unlikely, I'm afraid.

As for a suggestion that I was offering a "lesson", another misconception, I am not. I just threw my thoughts in on the original question. Take um or (in your case) leave 'um. I haven't suggested that I'm anyone of consequence, so how about ignoring the 2 posts a month I contribute to this forum since we're clearly not of the same mindset.

[faxiapreta]

What merits, you say? Oh, that you might need to develop some skills in clinch, throw, joint locks, takedowns. Oh, we can discuss those. But we have to make sure that we use Chinese terms now. In case we might gravitate too close to discussions related to "those people"

You mean the ones in which, to be effective, you might have to abandon some of the "principles" of your main system to make it effective?

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=

In fact, let's just skip over the mindset akin to racism and just discuss this on the merits.

[/QUOTE]



That sir, is the most succint point ever made.

[Vajramusti]

Oh really. And I suppose you practice these on a regular basis, right? Otherwise how can you obtain skill at them? So, out of say 2 times a week practice, what percentage of time would you say you work with chin na, cum na, cum la and / or throws?

And of your students, what percentage of them would you say, including the 3 other instructors you have listed, could engage in chin na, cum na cum la or throws successfully against a skilled opponent?

Or rather after reconsideration, is this statement a lot of hot air and there are a very low percentage of wing chun persons that are taught properly techniques relating to chin na, cum na, cum la and throws? And of those most of them learn this via cross-training in other arts that specialize in these techniques and approaches?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given the tone of the above post - not worth an answer, Would be a waste of time.

joy chaudhuri

[ShortBridge]

[QUOTE=

In fact, let's just skip over the mindset akin to racism and just discuss this on the merits.

[/QUOTE]

That sir, is the most succint point ever made.

What is, comparing the fact that I'm not personally drawn to octagon fighting to the oppression of people based on their ethnic heritage?

I'm not particularly interested in badminton either, what does that make me, an anti-semite?

[Wayfaring]

You mean the ones in which, to be effective, you might have to abandon some of the "principles" of your main system to make it effective?

yes those.

[Wayfaring]

You did misunderstand, but I'm not getting sucked into this argument.

What argument? I am asking you to explain the detail of an exchange with an unnamed wing chun sifu where he seemed to indicate that chin na techniques were not in wing chun but were in kung fu.

You started acting weird, and refused to answer, and instead are making up a bunch of stuff to do with arguments.

What did the guy mean?

Is that simple and clear enough?

[Wayfaring]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given the tone of the above post - not worth an answer, Would be a waste of time.

joy chaudhuri

No Joy, what is a waste of time is the condescending attitude which you are portraying here.

Why it is a waste of time is because the general public already knows you are full of hot air when you state that properly trained wing chun personnel are adept at chin na, throws and other grappling and ground related arts.

Why they know this is that there exists plenty of evidence supporting the arts that are adept in those things. And zero evidence supporting your conjecture.

So for you it is simpler to denigrate me and say I'm not worth conversing with.

Talk to the wind. That's where your arguments are, and where your non-existent skills in areas you don't train are.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1104096]No Joy, what is a waste of time is the condescending attitude which you are portraying here.

Why it is a waste of time is because the general public already knows you are full of hot air when you state that properly trained wing chun personnel are adept at chin na, throws and other grappling and ground related arts.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Don't waste your time or mine.

[ShortBridge]

What argument? I am asking you to explain the detail of an exchange with an unnamed wing chun sifu where he seemed to indicate that chin na techniques were not in wing chun but were in kung fu.

You started acting weird, and refused to answer, and instead are making up a bunch of stuff to do with arguments.

What did the guy mean?

Is that simple and clear enough?

Can't say for sure what he meant and I don't want to speak for him or drag his name into this thread. What I took it to mean was that Chinese martial artists traditionally drew from a number of things, not systems, not styles, but things like qi gung, meditation, chinese medicine, etc and that chin na was among those things. It wasn't important whether they were explicitly a codified part of the system that they practiced or not, they just didn't think of it that way. Whether or not that's what he meant, that's how I took it and how I have come to think over the years of meeting and training with people.

I don't think that's the same as American MMA. Not saying anything negative about MMA, it's just not what I do and I see them as different paths.

[Wayfaring]

What is, comparing the fact that I'm not personally drawn to octagon fighting to the oppression of people based on their ethnic heritage?

No. Since you are not understanding, let me draw you a picture. This thread portrays a tone of elitism to do with wing chun. How this plays out is the smiles and winks and conjecture about how people who train in a close quarter striking art somehow automagically pick up amazing skills in grappling, throws, locks, and similar techniques which they don't train. And in a similar sense, a nose in the air attitude towards "MMA".

What is remarkable about that is that it is somewhat of an elitist western mindset. Chinese sifus seem to be much more practical in nature dealing with this. They train what works. However, the western mind, infused with eastern exotic concepts, training and skills, somehow seems to lose objectivity and construct a paper mache house to live in.

Only in the west do you find the obnoxiousness to take culture which originates somewhere else and so fixate upon it that you build little cults far removed from reality, even far removed from where the original culture intends. The hilarious aspect of this is that even the original masters cross-trained. They just attributed all their learning to their main sifu as that was proper culturally.

[Wayfaring]

Don't waste your time or mine.

Get real.

Posting on a forum in any sense wastes both yours and my time.

So either substantiate your claims of a properly trained wing chun person being able to perform in a live environment doing chin na, cum na, throws, or admit you were spouting BS.

The only waste of time is the amount of time you stay in denial that you can obtain skill in an area without training it directly, or the amount of time you are wasting in avoiding admitting that is a dumb idea so you can save face. That is the real waste of time.