Religion

[KC Elbows]

KC, the thread started asked our views on religion, not the "offical view of religion A about religion B".

I know, but it seems like, at some point, you'd have to reconcile having to accept Jesus vs. having to express ultimate compassion free of even a concept of
Jesus vs. heaven as an ultimate reward vs. heavens as merely a pleasant form of punishment.

As for the Golden Rule, yes it predates Christianity and most other religions ( it is but a starting point in Christianity like I mentioned), but since religion and culture/society goes hand-in-hand and it is almost impossible to state which came first, it is logical to conclude that the "golden rule" is a by-product of religion.

The common shaping hands that one can prove are humans and the pressures on them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know, but it seems like, at some point, you'd have to reconcile having to accept Jesus vs. having to express ultimate compassion free of even a concept of
Jesus vs. heaven as an ultimate reward vs. heavens as merely a pleasant form of punishment.

Trying to reconcile Jesus as the "one and only way to God" is not easy when you see some much that is also right in other religions.
Personally it's not MY place to judge others or their faith and from what I understand, as a christian, Christ will judge all based on how We judge others and based on how He KNOWS our true heart ( perhaps better than we do).
We are all under God's grace and as such we ALL have the chance for everlasting life, but in the end, the choice to reject Christ is Ours but to reject Christ one must truly KNOW Him and I don't know of anyone that has KNOWN Christ and rejected him.
YET, the bible and history shows that some do.

[KC Elbows]

That said, I think the Greeks were right. Their religion never attempted to move beyond human experience, and thus never went into ground on which they had no direct experience, while not idolizing human conduct. So you have the king, he sleeps around, abducts women, gets all huffy, his wife destroys those women, whom he does little to help, etc. Greek mythology is a lesson in human foibles, while many later religions are written by humans as though they have knowledge beyond the human range.

[KC Elbows]

Trying to reconcile Jesus as the "one and only way to God" is not easy when you see some much that is also right in other religions.
Personally it's not MY place to judge others or their faith and from what I understand, as a christian, Christ will judge all based on how We judge others and based on how He KNOWS our true heart ( perhaps better than we do).
We are all under God's grace and as such we ALL have the chance for everlasting life, but in the end, the choice to reject Christ is Ours but to reject Christ one must truly KNOW Him and I don't know of anyone that has KNOWN Christ and rejected him.
YET, the bible and history shows that some do.

In your view, would one who accepts something that in essence was closest to Christ, but had no historical or religious conception of Christ(or was misinformed on the topic), go to heaven?

Meaning, person X has accepted, based on largely non-Christian sources, possibly non-religious, that compassion, kindness, etc, are the way to go, and lives that way. Now, the only Christians he knows about are Branch Davidians, and so he's quite suspect of this Jesus character. Where does he stand?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In your view, would one who accepts something that in essence was closest to Christ, but had no historical or religious conception of Christ(or was misinformed on the topic), go to heaven?

Meaning, person X has accepted, based on largely non-Christian sources, possibly non-religious, that compassion, kindness, etc, are the way to go, and lives that way. Now, the only Christians he knows about are Branch Davidians, and so he's quite suspect of this Jesus character. Where does he stand?

When we die, are are exposed to the ultimate truth.
Our spirit goes to heaven, our bodies decay and go back to the "dust" they were before.
Our spirit stays in Heaven ( for lack of a better term) where time is not applicable.
On the final day of judgment, our bodies are ressurected and our spirit returns to them.
Judgment will be had then and that judgment is based on what he rejected.
Christ said that only the blasphemy of the holy spirit would "kill the soul" and that blasphemy is to KNOW God and REJECT God.
So, in short, all those that accept God when God is truly KNOWN to them, will have everlasting life and those that reject God will, well...have what they want.
No God.

[KC Elbows]

When we die, are are exposed to the ultimate truth.
Our spirit goes to heaven, our bodies decay and go back to the "dust" they were before.
Our spirit stays in Heaven ( for lack of a better term) where time is not applicable.
On the final day of judgment, our bodies are ressurected and our spirit returns to them.
Judgment will be had then and that judgment is based on what he rejected.
Christ said that only the blasphemy of the holy spirit would "kill the soul" and that blasphemy is to KNOW God and REJECT God.
So, in short, all those that accept God when God is truly KNOWN to them, will have everlasting life and those that reject God will, well...have what they want.
No God.

Interesting. So, is faith in life more a matter of hoping to practice appreciation and refinement of what one hopes to be capable of accepting of when it is revealed?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interesting. So, is faith in life more a matter of hoping to practice appreciation and refinement of what one hopes to be capable of accepting of when it is revealed?

Nothing we do can assure us of salvation, nothing we do is "good enough" because the moment we do something with ulterior motives, it is "tainted".
Hence God's gift of Grace.
We can practice appreciation and refinement in its purest forms when we accepted that it can't be done without God, since we will do it for a mirade of reasons and all of them selfish, pridefull and egotistical, as is our nature.
The "fall" happened because Humans decided that they didn't need God, they they wanted to be God and that they were Gods.
Yet, without God, what do we have? Selfish and ulterior motives for everything we do.
One of the best ways to look at it is from the POV of being Parents.
We love our kids, uncondtionally and we do our best to raise them in that love.
We teach them the best we can.
We don't ask them to do good to please us, we want them to be good because it is right.
They want to please us not because they have to or they get a reward, but because they love us so much.
There is nothing they can do to make us love them even more because we love them as much as it possible to love.
And yet our love has limits ( right now) and God's has no limits.
Imagine our love and make it infinite and you have a small notion of what God's love is.

[JamesC]

Nothing we do can assure us of salvation, nothing we do is "good enough" because the moment we do something with ulterior motives, it is "tainted".
Hence God's gift of Grace.
We can practice appreciation and refinement in its purest forms when we accepted that it can't be done without God, since we will do it for a mirade of reasons and all of them selfish, pridefull and egotistical, as is our nature.
The "fall" happened because Humans decided that they didn't need God, they they wanted to be God and that they were Gods.
Yet, without God, what do we have? Selfish and ulterior motives for everything we do.
One of the best ways to look at it is from the POV of being Parents.
We love our kids, uncondtionally and we do our best to raise them in that love.
We teach them the best we can.
We don't ask them to do good to please us, we want them to be good because it is right.
They want to please us not because they have to or they get a reward, but because they love us so much.
There is nothing they can do to make us love them even more because we love them as much as it possible to love.
And yet our love has limits ( right now) and God's has no limits.
Imagine our love and make it infinite and you have a small notion of what God's love is.

That's a great analogy SR.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's a great analogy SR.

Well, we are made in HIS image.
The reason Christ wanted us to understand God as Our Father is to understand what he requires and why.
He isn't some aloof being in a different dimension that pops in every so often to check on his "creation".
Heaven and Earth intersect in His Son and in His gift of the Holy Spirit, it is HERE, NOW, WITH US.
What we do with it is up to us.

[JamesC]

SR, I have a question for you.

I've noticed a trend in some Churches of taking "The Lord is My Shepherd" a little too literally, imo. To the point that some people are almost completely helpless to do things themselves, almost using God as a crutch in everything that they do.

I'm not saying that we can't lean on him. That's what he wants, of course. However, at some point, you have to leave the nest. It seems to me that more and more people are refusing to do that.

I'm of the opinion that while God is our Father, he is also our Shepherd in the sense that he teaches us and guides us, but it is all ultimately up to us. Of course, "I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me," but, at the same time, "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

It just seems to me that so many people are not taking responsibility, not bettering themselves or living up to their potential and God's expectations.

I believe that after a certain point your relationship with God should make a change from that of a lost sheep or child to that of one who is striving to become more Godlike yourself. He then is no longer a crutch, but a supporter. A Helper, if you will.

What are your thoughts on this?

[SoCo KungFu]

All religions stem from the same source ( well, almost all) and they are simply different expressions of that source ( that source being God).
Most religions will have very similar cores ( golden rule for example).
The only religions that are wrong are religions that advocate hate and violence, indifference and no compassion.

All religions stem from the same source and are simply the expression of that source (that source being a misfiring of thought patterns which when correct, produced evolutionarily advantageous social behaviors which increased the survivability of individuals of our species. However, in this case are misinterpreted, the result of which we see now as religion).
Most religions will have very similar cores because all humans have the same basic survival needs and share the same basic psychological model in relation to fitness.
The only religions that are wrong are religions that are formed on invalidated assumptions.

Not to sound like a Dawkins fanboy, but my answer is just as adequate and probably more justifiable.

I wonder what people will say about religion when bonobos start creating mud paintings on rocks and trees...

That's not simple sarcasm. If you follow in any way primatology you know that (at least those familiar with the science) are in the process of eradicating what we traditionally thought of as being human. Not genetically. But culture, social norms, language, teaching...all the things we thought defined us as human; we are not unique little snowflakes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

SR, I have a question for you.

I've noticed a trend in some Churches of taking "The Lord is My Shepherd" a little too literally, imo. To the point that some people are almost completely helpless to do things themselves, almost using God as a crutch in everything that they do.

I'm not saying that we can't lean on him. That's what he wants, of course. However, at some point, you have to leave the nest. It seems to me that more and more people are refusing to do that.

I'm of the opinion that while God is our Father, he is also our Shepherd in the sense that he teaches us and guides us, but it is all ultimately up to us. Of course, "I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me," but, at the same time, "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

It just seems to me that so many people are not taking responsibility, not bettering themselves or living up to their potential and God's expectations.

I believe that after a certain point your relationship with God should make a change from that of a lost sheep or child to that of one who is striving to become more Godlike yourself. He then is no longer a crutch, but a supporter. A Helper, if you will.

What are your thoughts on this?

A sheppard is someone that takes care and protect the flock, he doesn't do the work of the sheep nor does he "be sheep" for them.
God gave us this plant to take care of it, we are his caretakers and we will answer for what we have done to IT.
He has give us ALL the tools we need for that, and then some.
He gives us all the strength we need and even carries us as time ( though we never know it).
The responsibility is OURS.
There will come a time when God will indeed make all things right, and that time is here and started with the ressurection of His Son, the first fruit of eternal life.
We put our trust and hope and faith in Christ and God, BUT WE are the instruments of His Work.
Like you said, All is possible by thhe Lord that strengthens me, NOT because the Lord doe sit, but because He gives us strength to do it.
We indeed shall be like God for we are already in his image, even if broken and fallen and incomplete.

The thing is that we can't do it WITHOUT God, but it is NOT God that does it.

No child grows up without a "parent" ( at least not in a healthy way) but it isn't the parent that does the growing up for them.
And when the parent is TOO involved and does TOO much, what do we have?
Stunned growth.
To put it nicely.

[JamesC]

All religions stem from the same source and are simply the expression of that source (that source being a misfiring of thought patterns which when correct, produced evolutionarily advantageous social behaviors which increased the survivability of individuals of our species. However, in this case are misinterpreted, the result of which we see now as religion).
Most religions will have very similar cores because all humans have the same basic survival needs and share the same basic psychological model in relation to fitness.
The only religions that are wrong are religions that are formed on invalidated assumptions.

Not to sound like a Dawkins fanboy, but my answer is just as adequate and probably more justifiable.

I wonder what people will say about religion when bonobos start creating mud paintings on rocks and trees...

That's not simple sarcasm. If you follow in any way primatology you know that (at least those familiar with the science) are in the process of eradicating what we traditionally thought of as being human. Not genetically. But culture, social norms, language, teaching...all the things we thought defined us as human; we are not unique little snowflakes.

We're animals just like every other living creature on this planet. It is a fact that many people don't agree with, but is quite obvious. We're nothing more than smart apes who aren't particularly good at anything in comparison to the other creatures of the natural world.

It has no affect on my belief system, though.

[JamesC]

A sheppard is someone that takes care and protect the flock, he doesn't do the work of the sheep nor does he "be sheep" for them.
God gave us this plant to take care of it, we are his caretakers and we will answer for what we have done to IT.
He has give us ALL the tools we need for that, and then some.
He gives us all the strength we need and even carries us as time ( though we never know it).
The responsibility is OURS.
There will come a time when God will indeed make all things right, and that time is here and started with the ressurection of His Son, the first fruit of eternal life.
We put our trust and hope and faith in Christ and God, BUT WE are the instruments of His Work.
Like you said, All is possible by thhe Lord that strengthens me, NOT because the Lord doe sit, but because He gives us strength to do it.
We indeed shall be like God for we are already in his image, even if broken and fallen and incomplete.

The thing is that we can't do it WITHOUT God, but it is NOT God that does it.

No child grows up without a "parent" ( at least not in a healthy way) but it isn't the parent that does the growing up for them.
And when the parent is TOO involved and does TOO much, what do we have?
Stunned growth.
To put it nicely.

It's refreshing to see that someone shares my opinion in this. It's something that has bothered me for a while.

[KC Elbows]

Is there a non-human on the planet doing something that requires us to protect the planet from it? Furry's don't count!