Internal martial arts: a fiction?

[Crosshandz]

I have been practicing Kung fu on and off for a number of years. In that time I have had the honour of taking classes from some pretty good martial artists and I am increasingly persuaded that the paradigm "internal" martial arts is a fiction.

After all these years observing martial arts I find it difficult to explain how Hung Gar is "external" and Xingyi is "internal", for example. As far as I can see barring some differences in method of power development and some in some methods of power exertion there isn't a paper width of difference between "internal" and "external" in practice. Someone hitting you with Taiji short power, to me, seems very similar to someone hitting you with Southern Mantis short power.

Yet I have witnessed heated arguments between "internal" and "external" stylists about the wrong power/energy/body method being used in techniques so I am curious to know what is it I am missing if anything?

[bawang]

the term internal is a modern invention

[faxiapreta]

No difference.

[bawang]

the real internal boxing was a southern kung fu style. the founder learned shaolin kung fu, then converted to taoism and there was a lot of politics
inner boxing had two forms: six road boxing which had only six techniques, and ten pieces which had 10 techniques.

[YouKnowWho]

At the end of the Ming dynasty, some none CMA scholar 黄藜洲(Huang Li Zhou) invented this word "internal" so we can argue for the next 1,000 years.

[Crosshandz]

The replies thus far seem to indicate that my senses do not deceive me. That being the case why hasn't the Chinese martial arts community attempted a wholesale rebrand and ditched this internal/external thing?

[bawang]

at the end of the ming dynasty 400 years ago cold weapons became increasingly obsolete. the ming army began to modernize and transition to firearms. in order to survive martial arts began to msytify and romantisize itself.

[faxiapreta]

The replies thus far seem to indicate that my senses do not deceive me. That being the case why hasn't the Chinese martial arts community attempted a wholesale rebrand and ditched this internal/external thing?

Because they would lose a whole market segment. There will always be a part of the population who wants the "special secret" or something they think will give them the edge compared to how other people develop their abilities.

[bawang]

There will always be a part of the population who wants the "special secret" or something they think will give them the edge compared to how other people develop their abilities.

they are getting old and dying.

[YouKnowWho]

There are only 2 kind of people who live on this planet, those who train "internal", and those who wish they train "internal". (I steal this line from the movie, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding").

If you always use terms such as, "internal power", "internal structure", "internal alignment", "core engine", ..., it will make you to feel "superior" than others. If people don't believe in your "internal" theory, you can always tell that person that he is just not lucky enough to meet someone who can show him the "real deal".

[faxiapreta]

There are only 2 kind of people who live on this planet, those who train "internal", and thos who wish they train "internal".

If you always use terms such as, "internal power", "internal structure", "internal alignment", "core engine", ..., it will make you to feel "superior" than others. If people don't believe in your "internal opinion, you can always tell that person that he is just not luck enough to meet someone who can show him the "real deal".

People who go out and test against others in real-time competitive environments quickly learn there is no differentiation between internal and external.

[Foiling Fist]

When water is rushing through a fire hose at a high pressure rate, and flowing out of the nozzle, it is nearly impossible to bend sideways. This is due to the internal strength of the water flowing within.

This is the same energy that is used in internal martial arts, and is strenghtened with the training method 'Unbendable Arm', made famouse by Aikido Grandmaster Uyshiba.
See : http://aikidoforbeginners.blogspot.c...dable-arm.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

When water is rushing through a fire hose at a high pressure rate, and flowing out of the nozzle, it is nearly impossible to bend sideways. This is due to the internal strength of the water flowing within.

This is the same energy that is used in internal martial arts, and is strenghtened with the training method 'Unbendable Arm', made famouse by Aikido Grandmaster Uyshiba.
See : http://aikidoforbeginners.blogspot.c...dable-arm.html

The unbendable arm is done by tension in the lats and should as opposed to simply the arm, ANY guy that has actually learned Aikido knows this.
That is how it was taught by O-senei himself.

[YouKnowWho]

'Unbendable Arm',

Anybody can learn this trick within 2 minutes. Does that mean anybody can be "internal" master quickly?

When fire fighters hold tarp for people to jump on it. It's the same explaination that "extension" force bounce vertical force back. In the "unbendable arm" example, the vertical force is bounced (transmitted) into the ground by both persons feet.

Even my female student could demonstrate this in public.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxazd0dK7EM

[SPJ]

soft vs hard.

1 if you are hard or strong enough, just outpower the opponent

heavy sword does not have to be sharp to have a devastating effect

2. if you are weaker in power, you may out maneuver with speed/timing

you may use a soft power or some yielding power and let the opponent's power (borrowed) to run its course but add your smaller power to divert or redirect

running water is a good analogy

internal and external both at work at the same time

smart force or use the force in a smart way

this is inherent in all doctrines, so called internal methods do not monoply the ideas.

or internal alone does not work.