Internal martial arts: a fiction?

[Water-quan]

Water-quan, did you know that the word "internal" was used in Taoist texts as early as 350 B.C., and that text shows evidence of stemming from an even older oral tradition?

Chinese culture is old and varied! Just because "some" people didn't know what it meant, or use it themselves does not mean that it was completely unknown or never used. It could just as likely mean that particular guy was not educated deeply enough on the subject!

What one or two noted characters, out of a long and varied history of a country, have to say does not prove anything other than these particular characters don't know anything other than what they were taught or learned on their own! To presume they know all there is to know on a subject and that they are the final word on the subject is not very wise!

What you failed to factor in is that 'Yi quan one' does yi quan, and the people I mentioned are the most senior yiquan masters. Do try to keep up.

[Scott R. Brown]

What you failed to factor in is that 'Yi quan one' does yi quan, and the people I mentioned are the most senior yiquan masters. Do try to keep up.

And they are uneducated enough to not know that "internal" as a reference to mental as opposed to physical training has been around as a term in Chinese philosophy for 2,350 years or more!

So much for being an expert! Or master

[Water-quan]

And they are uneducated enough to not know that "internal" as a reference to mental as opposed to physical training has been around as a term in Chinese philosophy for 2,350 years or more!

So much for being an expert! Or master

What - Wang Xiang Zhai and Yao Zong Xun? Two of the most famous and highly respected kung fu masters of all time? Just the fact that you've never heard of them highlights you as ignorant in the field of kung fu history.

I think this really highlights the issue with you - you actually think you know more about old Chinese kung fu culture than Chinese kung fu people from the past. It highlights that your ideas are revisionist, and based on modern fantasy rather than real knowledge of the past.

PS - yes, ofcourse they were aware of all the nonsense surrounding ideas of 'internal and external' - but as they had a gym full of boxers, wrestlers, kung fu experts - a judo and jiu jitsu expert - some national champions, for example the Chinese national san da and western boxing champion, they probably didn't have time for magic, like you have.

[YiQuanOne]

What - Wang Xiang Zhai and Yao Zong Xun? Two of the most famous and highly respected kung fu masters of all time? Just the fact that you've never heard of them highlights you as ignorant in the field of kung fu history.

I think this really highlights the issue with you - you actually think you know more about old Chinese kung fu culture than Chinese kung fu people from the past. It highlights that your ideas are revisionist, and based on modern fantasy rather than real knowledge of the past.

PS - yes, ofcourse they were aware of all the nonsense surrounding ideas of 'internal and external' - but as they had a gym full of boxers, wrestlers, kung fu experts - a judo and jiu jitsu expert - some national champions, for example the Chinese national san da and western boxing champion, they probably didn't have time for magic, like you have.

I aggree with Mr. Brown, just because these guys won't tell you anything, does not mean they don't know it. They must be able to do it, but might not know why it is that they can do it and other people can't, not good teachers.

Most of these guys will not teach in the american way, to them, having to explain anything to you, they think, causes them to loose face.

Do a little reading, internal is well documented every where, a little research goes a long way. Have you read "Tai Chi Classics"?.

I have noticed that most people do not do any reading, you need to understand a concept of what you are working toward.

Training the body to be faster and stronger is not an Art, as you get older you have retained nothing, there will always be people faster and stronger than you.

I don't follow those guys either, one name sounds a little familiar, but it is Chen style with more external applications.

Good Luck

[Hendrik]

Most of these guys will not teach in the american way, to them, having to explain anything to you, they think, causes them to loose face.

I disagree with you.

my personal experience is that. until one's kung fu is at a certain level, the mind cannot comprehend.

For example, I pratice an internal art, for six years, 2hours per day, every day, I cant figure out how to handle the mind, breathing, Qi, and body. I keep asking and visit different teachers for all information and reasons...ec. all, I got is not that usefull because my mind think it knows but it actully dont know.

So, after the practice and all the hard work after six years, one day I realized it and there on everything comes with ease. and looking back everything is clear and simple, dont even needs all those reason I am asking for, now why do I get stuck for years with all the documentation and teachings....etc. ?

Well, i now believe what my sifu told me, follow the instruction, when your kung fu is there, you will know. Kung fu and insight is from training not from thinking and mind speculation and explanation..reasoning..etc. that is not the way to go. reasoning cant accelerate kung fu.



In fact, explanation and reasoning is trouble get one stuck in the brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQL_9OS0uo



if some one asked me how to do what I do today, i would not explain to him but say " keep training" via the proper instruction. you will know when you are there. even if I explain to you all the reason, you body - mind cant do it.

[YiQuanOne]

I disagree with you.

my personal experience is that. until one's kung fu is at a certain level, the mind cannot comprehend.

For example, I pratice an internal art, for six years, 2hours per day, every day, I cant figure out how to handle the mind, breathing, Qi, and body. I keep asking and visit different teachers for all information and reasons...ec. all, I got is not that usefull because my mind think it knows but it actully dont know.

So, after the practice and all the hard work after six years, one day I realized it and there on everything comes with ease. and looking back everything is clear and simple, dont even needs all those reason I am asking for, now why do I get stuck for years with all the documentation and teachings....etc. ?

Well, i now believe what my sifu told me, follow the instruction, when your kung fu is there, you will know. Kung fu and insight is from training not from thinking and mind speculation and explanation..reasoning..etc. that is not the way to go. reasoning cant accelerate kung fu.



In fact, explanation and reasoning is trouble get one stuck in the brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQL_9OS0uo



if some one asked me how to do what I do today, i would not explain to him but say " keep training" via the proper instruction. you will know when you are there. even if I explain to you all the reason, you body - mind cant do it.

Yes, their are two minds, one is the "monkey mind" and one is the Yi mind, you don't want the monkey mind, it is the emotional thinking mind, always trying to analyze everything. Jumping from one thought to the next.

So your training needs to quiet the monkey mind, I am sure that their are probably many different ways to accomplish this, follow that path and things will fall into place to a certain extend.

[Water-quan]

I aggree with Mr. Brown, just because these guys won't tell you anything, does not mean they don't know it. They must be able to do it, but might not know why it is that they can do it and other people can't, not good teachers.

Most of these guys will not teach in the american way, to them, having to explain anything to you, they think, causes them to loose face.

Do a little reading, internal is well documented every where, a little research goes a long way. Have you read "Tai Chi Classics"?.

I have noticed that most people do not do any reading, you need to understand a concept of what you are working toward.

Training the body to be faster and stronger is not an Art, as you get older you have retained nothing, there will always be people faster and stronger than you.

I don't follow those guys either, one name sounds a little familiar, but it is Chen style with more external applications.

Good Luck

Well then you don't do Yiquan, do you, Yiquanone. Yiquan not would have been a better name.

No, actually, they weren't just saying stuff for Western audiences and secretly believing something else - unless you secretly mean that you don't believe in internal energy - in fact, let's just assume everyone 'secretly' means whatever we think.

Again, the heart of this problem is people in the West simply assuming that they know more about what Chinese martial artists in the past thought than actual Chinese martial artists who lived in the past - especially people like Wang and Yao, who actually knew, personally, in many cases trained with, some of the people people here only talk about in legendary terms - such as Sun Lu Tang and the famous Yang family, as well as several Xing Yi and Bagua masters - amongst countless other martial artists. And these are people who not only read the Chinese classics - but read them in Chinese, as well as numerous other documents - and actually went and met, fought, trained with actual Shaolin monks, Yang family members ets. Get it? They were actually there. And yet...somehow...if they say 'internal' doesn't mean what modern, often white, Americans and Europeans say it means, somehow they are the people who don't know what they're talking about. When you find out that they don't actuallybelieve in 'internal energy', what do you do - you suddenly decide that they secretly did, but lied, again and again, not to Westerners, but to Chinese, in their own writings and lectures. Well, no - they didn't - they just didn't believe in internal energy.

Have a good think about that. Then look up 'Wang Xiang Zhai', lol.

[Foiling Fist]

The Monkey Mind(reactive-emotional) can be of great use, when controlled by the Horse Mind (contemplative)

"A major difference of Hsing-i, is that the first mind, the so-called emotional mind, Xing, is not to be suppressed, rather it is cultivated since Xing Yi imitates the animal form, mind and spirit. Most men in a fight; cannot match a wild animal half their weight.

In some other internal martial arts, and Qi Gong; the emotional mind is suppressed and dominated by Yi, the wisdom mind. This emotional mind is the fastest, as it is travels from the thalamus, then to the amygdale.

The renown researcher of the neurology of fear, Dr. Joseph DeLoux of New York University, in his book The Emotional Brain, found that there are two kinds of fear in the brain: fast fear and slow fear.

Fast fear travels the low road of the brain: senses to thalamus, then to the amygdale, which is located deep within the brain on the temporal sides; time 12 milliseconds. Traditional philosophy represents this separation as horse mind (slow) controlling the monkey mind (fast).

Slow fear travels the high road of the brain: senses to thalamus which sends it to the cortex (higher up); time 24 milliseconds. Both systems occur simultaneously, with the same sense data, the theory being that you cannot have speed and accuracy on the same circuit. Bear in mind, this is not the time to process the information, or physically move to react.

12 milliseconds or 1 hundredth of a second might not seem like much difference, but consider that there are some people that can beat a flash. Beating a flash is blinking your eyes when a photo is shot with a flash. The difference in speed between the flash, and camera shutter is one fiftieth of a second, or 2 hundredths. I and others can beat it trying, and by surprise, some just by surprise. Memory and choice have to go to the cortex, so they are slower; test your reaction theory with the flash. "
From: http://jadedragonalaska.yolasite.com...i-hsing--i.php
****

Yes, their are two minds, one is the "monkey mind" and one is the Yi mind, you don't want the monkey mind, it is the emotional thinking mind, always trying to analyze everything. Jumping from one thought to the next.

So your training needs to quiet the monkey mind, I am sure that their are probably many different ways to accomplish this, follow that path and things will fall into place to a certain extend.

[Foiling Fist]

Well put. That could be said for the finding of an exceptional person, in many fields.

I see that their are not to many people here that have met someone with some internal skills.

Someone that uses internal should be able to show you the difference between internal and external in all conditions. It should be clear as day to each side. If they can't show the difference and make it very clear, then they don't have it .

I know a lot of people claim it because their art is supposed to be it, but are just clueless and just don't know they don't know.

Internal is basically being able to use the properties of yin and yang together to counter a heavy force. Not depending on superior muscle strength or speed to neutralize an attack or counter attack.

The internal damage to another person is hard to test, I would not dwell on that one, unless you have some animals running around you want to practice on.

If the stronger over powers the weaker, it is genetics, no martial art there.

[Foiling Fist]

Look at all the external proponent's bashings of internals on this thread:
(Internal martial arts: a fiction?); all deny every internal concept they address.
It would appear that if they admited internals, their entire image of world order and logic; would collapse. This flogic fixation fear of reality is called denial.

Now look at the internal proponents; and you will not see one bashing external: some use it also.

There have been reports of some people dieing, when a finger is cut, and the bleeding is stopped. This is due to the person's own self-image; that he cannot exist without his seperated finger. He convinces himself, and dies.

Many things can be aided by the explanation of medchanics, but not all of them. One that cannot use any other logic other than machines, is said to be mechanistic.

Try giving a mechanical explanation of entrainment.

"A room full of pendulum-type grandfather clocks with the pendulums in motion at different times, they will all swing differently. Within a day, all the pendulums will be swinging together at the same rate. This is entrainment; a group activity; that by itself has no particular changing influence. It was discovered by the Dutch scientist Christian Huygens in 1665."
From: http://jadedragonalaska.yolasite.com...ntrainment.php

[wenshu]

Where do you buy your Dockers?

Do you prefer pleated because of the increased kua range of motion?

[YiQuanOne]

Well then you don't do Yiquan, do you, Yiquanone. Yiquan not would have been a better name.

No, actually, they weren't just saying stuff for Western audiences and secretly believing something else - unless you secretly mean that you don't believe in internal energy - in fact, let's just assume everyone 'secretly' means whatever we think.

Again, the heart of this problem is people in the West simply assuming that they know more about what Chinese martial artists in the past thought than actual Chinese martial artists who lived in the past - especially people like Wang and Yao, who actually knew, personally, in many cases trained with, some of the people people here only talk about in legendary terms - such as Sun Lu Tang and the famous Yang family, as well as several Xing Yi and Bagua masters - amongst countless other martial artists. And these are people who not only read the Chinese classics - but read them in Chinese, as well as numerous other documents - and actually went and met, fought, trained with actual Shaolin monks, Yang family members ets. Get it? They were actually there. And yet...somehow...if they say 'internal' doesn't mean what modern, often white, Americans and Europeans say it means, somehow they are the people who don't know what they're talking about. When you find out that they don't actuallybelieve in 'internal energy', what do you do - you suddenly decide that they secretly did, but lied, again and again, not to Westerners, but to Chinese, in their own writings and lectures. Well, no - they didn't - they just didn't believe in internal energy.

Have a good think about that. Then look up 'Wang Xiang Zhai', lol.

The standing we do came from Cai, which has a link to Wang, the guy that was always challenging all other martial artist in the last century.

Just because these guys don't want to analyse or descibe stuff of label things, does not mean other people can't.

I think Yang Lu Chan is more of a complete package of internal than all these other guys. But ha, never met any of them, their dead now.

Some arts do try to blast the mind, but I find that very limiting, you should be able to use what is needed at that time, by having all options open.

I use the YiQuan and apply it to application, internal energy. I would not try to over analyze the words.

So anyway just because you don't believe in something, does not mean that it does not excist. You just haven't found it yet.

[SimonM]

So anyway just because you don't believe in something, does not mean that it does not excist. You just haven't found it yet.

Exist is not spelled with a "c"

[Scott R. Brown]

Try giving a mechanical explanation of entrainment.

"A room full of pendulum-type grandfather clocks with the pendulums in motion at different times, they will all swing differently. Within a day, all the pendulums will be swinging together at the same rate. This is entrainment; a group activity; that by itself has no particular changing influence. It was discovered by the Dutch scientist Christian Huygens in 1665."

Pendulums to NOT entrain, they synchronize. Yours is another example of reinterpreting data to say what you want it to say, instead accepting what it actually says!

In short, the pendulums only synchronize when they share a common base, thus the momentum of the faster pendulums speeds up the slower pendulum when energy is transferred from one pendulum to the other through the common base. It IS a mechanistic explanation, whether you want it to be mechanistic or not!

[Scott R. Brown]

......just because you don't believe in something, does not mean that it does not excist. You just haven't found it yet.

While this is may be a true statement......

consequently it leads to:

.......just because you want to believe something exists, does not make it exist!

If we ascribe to Occam's Razor, variously stated by him as:

"Plurality must never be posited without necessity."

and

"It is futile to do with more things that which can be done with fewer."

and generally interpreted to mean:

"the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one."

We must refuse to accept the fantastic explanations provided by internal practitioners seeking to explain their "internal" effects when they may all be explained more simply by known laws of physics and bio-mechanics!