Iron Palm

[Bacon]

Finger training is not just for striking with the fingertips.

the side benefit from Iron Palm and Iron Finger training is a great increase in grip strength.

Which can be done safely and more easily in other ways. When you can deadlift, row, press and clean a decent amout your grip strength will be good enough anyway and you'll be stronger than most.

You need to strengthen the entire arm from the shoulders down, people who feel they need only train the palms or the fingers without the rest of the supporting structure are just wasting their time as they will fail in application.

See above

Maybe you should not talk about things you have no direct experience in.

Well if that's the case you can talk about iron training and I'll refrain but then you have no cause to talk about actual fighting.

Here's the rub.
Pressure point techniques are generally ineffectual for several reason not the least of which is that you're trying to hit very a small target under pressure. Many people can shrug off strikes or pressure to those points. The same can not be said of areas which can easily be hit with larger, more easily and safely conditioned weapons like the temple, jaw, brachial plexus, liver, kidneys, or peroneal nerve. So anything which could be struck with the fingers could be more effectually struck by another tool such as a fist, edge of the hand, palm, or elbow.

Also the nerves in and around the throat are easy to hit with all manner of strikes, not just the fingers. And they can be very dangerous.

Ooo the magical nerve striking. I'm shaking in my dim mak booties. If you hit the throat or area around it hard enough you'll do damage and there are better tools for that like the edge of the hand, forearm, etc. You don't need any kind of iron conditioning for that.

How about this. Find a well trained boxer or Thai boxer and try to apply your finger strikes under pressure. Once you wake up tell me how it went.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pressure point techniques are generally ineffectual for several reason not the least of which is that you're trying to hit very a small target under pressure. Many people can shrug off strikes or pressure to those points. The same can not be said of areas which can easily be hit with larger, more easily and safely conditioned weapons like the temple, jaw, brachial plexus, liver, kidneys, or peroneal nerve. So anything which could be struck with the fingers could be more effectually struck by another tool such as a fist, edge of the hand, palm, or elbow.

Every MA has "vital point striking".
The correct theory has always been, to use the sniper analogy: Aim Small, Miss Small, Aim big, Miss Big.
I am not a fan of finger strikes so I don't train them, BUT I have seen them being used quite effectively under the right circumstances.

[IronFist]

Finger training is not just for striking with the fingertips.

the side benefit from Iron Palm and Iron Finger training is a great increase in grip strength. You need to strengthen the entire arm from the shoulders down, people who feel they need only train the palms or the fingers without the rest of the supporting structure are just wasting their time as they will fail in application.

How does training the fingers with striking cause an increase in grip strength?

I'm agreeing that grip strength is important.

I fail to see how any sort of striking training will cause an increase in potential muscle output.

[IronFist]

Phoenix Eye Fist is cool.

I trained it on a wall bag every day for a few years like a decade ago.

All these small target and fine motor coordination techniques are next to impossible to do against a resisting opponent and especially when you have an adrenaline dump.

This kind of thing is never going to happen in a real fight -- a simultaneous block and nerve strike to the biceps. Would it hurt like hell? Yes. Are you going to pull that off against a resisting opponent who is actually trying to fight you and not just standing there letting you strike his outstretched arm? Of course not.



Sure, you can jam your fingers into someone's ribs, but it's going to be **** hard IRL to do it. It certainly won't look like this (imagine he's using his fingers instead of a palm strike):



Have your training partner put on some safety goggles and see how tough it is to do eye strikes are when he's not just standing there throwing cooperative punches at you like this:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Typically, "limb destruction" is used VS grabs or attempted grabs and while they CAN be used VS strikes, the likelihood of them working is very limited.
Marciano used to do it, punching the opponents arms, so did other boxers ( Foreman and Norton I think).

[Dale Dugas]

How does training the fingers with striking cause an increase in grip strength?

I'm agreeing that grip strength is important.

I fail to see how any sort of striking training will cause an increase in potential muscle output.

Because you have not done it.

Iron Palm and the striking involved causes the ligaments and tendons of the hands to thicken from the impact. The shock will over time thicken the tissues of the hands.

Training the fingers through medium in a bucket training causes you to strengthen all the extensors and flexor muscles in the forearm which also influence grip.

So you have increases in the systems used to hold and grip things without actually training just the grip.

[IronFist]

Because you have not done it.

Iron Palm and the striking involved causes the ligaments and tendons of the hands to thicken from the impact. The shock will over time thicken the tissues of the hands.

Agreed. It's called Wolff's law. It's why dancers and gymnasts have more dense heels than other people.

It has nothing to do with muscular strength, though.

Training the fingers through medium in a bucket training causes you to strengthen all the extensors and flexor muscles in the forearm which also influence grip.

What kind of "training"? Do you mean like thrusting your hands into a bucket filled with something (beans, rocks, steel shot, etc.)? That in and of itself wouldn't strengthen the grip.

So are you talking about grasping at the material in the bucket after thrusting your hands into it? For example, thrust, grab, remove hand from bucket, repeat?

That may result in marginal grip increases in grip strength.

So you have increases in the systems used to hold and grip things without actually training just the grip.

If increasing grip strength is the goal, there are far better methods that would yield quantifiable results in much less time.

[Empty_Cup]

...

Training the fingers through medium in a bucket training causes you to strengthen all the extensors and flexor muscles in the forearm which also influence grip.

....

Can you say more about this, Dale? You referenced this with "flapping" hands within the medium...not really clear what you're describing here.

[Raipizo]

Can you say more about this, Dale? You referenced this with "flapping" hands within the medium...not really clear what you're describing here.

Yeah it is kinda vague

[TaichiMantis]

One way to increase finger grip strength is to toss and grab a cloth bag filled with beans using only you fingers, or toss and grab a yoga ball without your palms touching the ball.

[Dale Dugas]

Training the fingers is a process that uses a bucket of medium that your hands are not struck into, you use slow smooth strength and see how far you can push your entire arm from the shoulders down into the bucket. This will be hard at first as your flexor and extender muscles of the lower arm/forearm are not strong and you will notice you cannot get all the way through the medium.

Most people start with beans. Does NOT matter what kind so please do not come back with all that silly superstition about you NEED mung beans. Many people like soy beans as they are very hard and round. You could use kidney beans, etc.

You will practice pushing your arm(hand, forearm, upper arm) into the medium.

You then practice the various flapping methods with your hands under the beans. You also twirl the hands as if opening a door knob and squeezing the beans, you then can add grabbing the beans and then flicking them back into the bucket with your finger flicks. Many South Mantis people train their hands and fingers this way. They have nasty 3 hand power.

You need to use some strong dit da jow as the finger and forearms are going to get sore as heck with all this supination and pronation of the arms. Before and after are the usual applications methods.
You can also get yourself some solid Bao Ding Wan(http://www.baodingballs.com) as the hollow ones are for cupcakes.

Working the solid bao ding with the fingers will increase their strength as well.

All together the flapping, twirling exercises along with pushing through 50 pounds of beans in a bucket is strengthening the arms in a way that forearm curls, and weight lifting does not.

Add this to Iron Palm training and you are going to have a unusually strong set of arms, hands, along with a grip strength increase.

Other Shifu teach you to pick up jars that are heavy with the fingertips, this is practiced in many of the Okinawan systems as well. Make the mitts strong and then rip people in half when needed.

Hope this helps.

[Raipizo]

Training the fingers is a process that uses a bucket of medium that your hands are not struck into, you use slow smooth strength and see how far you can push your entire arm from the shoulders down into the bucket. This will be hard at first as your flexor and extender muscles of the lower arm/forearm are not strong and you will notice you cannot get all the way through the medium.

Most people start with beans. Does NOT matter what kind so please do not come back with all that silly superstition about you NEED mung beans. Many people like soy beans as they are very hard and round. You could use kidney beans, etc.

You will practice pushing your arm(hand, forearm, upper arm) into the medium.

You then practice the various flapping methods with your hands under the beans. You also twirl the hands as if opening a door knob and squeezing the beans, you then can add grabbing the beans and then flicking them back into the bucket with your finger flicks. Many South Mantis people train their hands and fingers this way. They have nasty 3 hand power.

You need to use some strong dit da jow as the finger and forearms are going to get sore as heck with all this supination and pronation of the arms. Before and after are the usual applications methods.
You can also get yourself some solid Bao Ding Wan(http://www.baodingballs.com) as the hollow ones are for cupcakes.

Working the solid bao ding with the fingers will increase their strength as well.

All together the flapping, twirling exercises along with pushing through 50 pounds of beans in a bucket is strengthening the arms in a way that forearm curls, and weight lifting does not.

Add this to Iron Palm training and you are going to have a unusually strong set of arms, hands, along with a grip strength increase.

Other Shifu teach you to pick up jars that are heavy with the fingertips, this is practiced in many of the Okinawan systems as well. Make the mitts strong and then rip people in half when needed.

Hope this helps.

So you're just pressing your hand in instead of striking? And you would twist your hand when it's already inside? And to flick you mean like rapidly opening your hand right? Just trying to clarify. I might even give this a try. Never tried conditioning my fingers.

[Raipizo]

Also Dale any word from your bag supplier yet on the lined bags, I knew he was injured or something and you said he would be back around fall. Just wondering was all.

[Dale Dugas]

It is not that easy guys and there is a lot more material and information that needs to be learned as you can injure your hands. Hands on training is needed with these programs as you can damage nerves among other issues.

As with any serious training program you want to learn from people who know what they are doing and can offer you not only the physical methods but the healing methods as well.

There are herbs to take internally as well as different heated medicines you can use to ensure safety and non injuries.

The advanced levels have you striking into the mediums but that is not done before you develop the physical strength and structure.

I teach these methods privately so let me know how I can be of service.

FYI Please be aware of anyone not licensed as an acupuncturist/herbalist cannot give you any advice on taking internal herbs for ANY reason, as this is practicing Chinese herbal medicine without a license. Certain unethical people out there are pretending to be licensed health care practitioners and making recommendations that are illegal. Caveat Emptor

P.S. I should more bags in a few weeks. Order has been placed.

[Raipizo]

It is not that easy guys and there is a lot more material and information that needs to be learned as you can injure your hands. Hands on training is needed with these programs as you can damage nerves among other issues.

As with any serious training program you want to learn from people who know what they are doing and can offer you not only the physical methods but the healing methods as well.

FYI Please be aware of anyone not licensed as an acupuncturist/herbalist cannot give you any advice on taking internal herbs for ANY reason, as this is practicing Chinese herbal medicine without a license. Certain unethical people out there are pretending to be licensed health care practitioners and making recommendations that are illegal. Caveat Emptor

Just look at the busted Tcm practitioner section lol