Iron Palm

[IronWeasel]

Is there any evidence out there of required frequency of training for IP?

I have always trained and been taught 2 - 3 times per week is sufficient. It wasn't until coming on this forum that I saw some folks saying that every day training is required. Maybe it's really a question of personal goals and progression but I would think there is a point of diminishing returns in frequency of training. i.e. at some point your body needs to repair itself to get more benefit from the next training session.

Thoughts?

In the beginning, the progression of strikes is gradual. Start out with ten strikes (per hand surface) and then add ten every week.

My hand was achy for about the first month, then it became accustomed to the conditioning.

To continue striking the bag twice daily after two years will continue to bring benefit, but it may thicken the hand noticably.

Striking a few times a week after the two years is to maintain the gains that you have made.

[Dale Dugas]

Rik,

I have learned my IP from Shifu Gene Chicoine.

I have not learned IP from Shifu Hagood but have talked to him about hand and finger training and one needs to be cautious and not overzealous as you can ruin your hands/fingers.

I train with smooth polished rocks and steel ball bearings for my finger training. I also train with hanging chains for my arms as well as using a copper hitter all over my body.

I am an acupuncturist so I have trained my hands but not ruined them. Strengthen not destroy is the motto of any iron skill training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks for the response. With all due respect, what is the support for this training regimen? Have there been any studies done which show this training to have the most benefit? Would one progress even faster by training three times a day in the first years, for example?

There is a fine line of diminishing returns.
Typically one gets to certain "numbers and frequencies" via direct experience and they TEND to be good for most people.
You maybe able to do MORE or perhaps should do less BUT with the schedule suggested by Dale and Iron Weasel, anyone WILL make progress.
There has NOT been any scientific studies done, other than the ones down on "Wolff's Law" and they show that more doesn't tend to be better and that there is a "peak" that one hits that no amount of increase will make it any "better".

[Empty_Cup]

studies?

...

...
There has NOT been any scientific studies done, other than the ones down on "Wolff's Law" and they show that more doesn't tend to be better and that there is a "peak" that one hits that no amount of increase will make it any "better".

Good points. I figured there is probably a lack of any formal research on this topic. In the absence of that, it seems to be more of a "pass/fail" knowledge base where you have different regimens that work. The ones that don't work result in some kind of injury/damage and overall we say "don't do that again."

So, the better question might be to ask, "What is the minimum regimen needed that still produces results?" As I mentioned before, I am aware of a regimen that trains only 2 - 3 x per week and still gets results. So from this it would seem every day training is not needed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2hCsCRE14

[Raipizo]

Enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2hCsCRE14

That's awesome.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's awesome.

GM Chicoine has some amazing breaks, and some of his students don't fall to far from the tree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Another method of Ip involves what is referred to in sport circles as "time under load".
Basically instead of a prescribed number of strikes, you hit the IP bag for a prescribe time frame.
And Example is:
15 min for palm, 15 for back, 15 for side and 15 for fist for a total of 60 min.
Now, if you average about 1 second per strike, you get about 900 strikes per type of strike.
This is a more advanced system and is used by a few different schools.

[IronFist]

How many strikes per day does typical Iron Palm begin with?

I remember back in the day when I was doing Iron Body it was 20 strikes per body part per exercise per day (so like for forearms, it was 20 reps of hitting your forearms together and then 20 strikes on each forearm with the bags, etc.) and then after a certain amount of time you would increase the reps by one per week. I think it was that. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How many strikes per day does typical Iron Palm begin with?

I remember back in the day when I was doing Iron Body it was 20 strikes per body part per exercise per day (so like for forearms, it was 20 reps of hitting your forearms together and then 20 strikes on each forearm with the bags, etc.) and then after a certain amount of time you would increase the reps by one per week. I think it was that. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

Depending on the system,but typically you would start with 10 strikes per type ( depends on the system which types but typiclaly - palm, back of hand, side, fist/or finger/ or claw/ or short range palm)
You do that twice a day for the first week, then add 10 more strikes per day till you get to 50, then do 50 each type,twice a day for a year, then add 10 more every day till you get to 100 per day twice a day, then do that for a year then cut back to 100 per day or every other day or only every 2 days, whatever your schedule permits ( maintenance phase).

Basically all the IP methods start of 2X a day for at least 2 years and then curtail to once a day for maintenance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The "time under load" method (TUL) is similar but tinstead of counting the strikes, you time the session, but it is the same 2X a day for the first 2 years and then once a day after, BUT in this method, from what I gather, the total time once it goes to once a day is the same as it was 2X, so:
2 sessions of 30 min becomes 1 session of 60 min.

[IronFist]

Depending on the system,but typically you would start with 10 strikes per type ( depends on the system which types but typiclaly - palm, back of hand, side, fist/or finger/ or claw/ or short range palm)
You do that twice a day for the first week, then add 10 more strikes per day till you get to 50, then do 50 each type,twice a day for a year, then add 10 more every day till you get to 100 per day twice a day, then do that for a year then cut back to 100 per day or every other day or only every 2 days, whatever your schedule permits ( maintenance phase).

Basically all the IP methods start of 2X a day for at least 2 years and then curtail to once a day for maintenance.

Cool, thanks. That's kinda what I figured.

I thought I remembered reading something somewhere where it was time-based, like it had you begin with 30 minutes a day. I was like holy crap, 30 minutes a day, that would be hundreds of strikes just when you're first starting out, which seemed like way too much. I can see some beginner who wants to be super deadly hitting the bag like 500 times on his first day and hurting himself.

As I've said before, the one thing TCMA gets right is gradual increases when it comes to body conditioning. Not the 72 Consummate Arts nonsense, but Iron Palm, Iron Body, fist conditioning, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Cool, thanks. That's kinda what I figured.

I thought I remembered reading something somewhere where it was time-based, like it had you begin with 30 minutes a day. I was like holy crap, 30 minutes a day, that would be hundreds of strikes just when you're first starting out, which seemed like way too much. I can see some beginner who wants to be super deadly hitting the bag like 500 times on his first day and hurting himself.

As I've said before, the one thing TCMA gets right is gradual increases when it comes to body conditioning. Not the 72 Consummate Arts nonsense, but Iron Palm, Iron Body, fist conditioning, etc.

My understanding of the TUL method is that it is an advanced method, done typically after the "numerical" method.
After 2 years of training.
You know that guy on the youtube video with the "mutant hand"? ( that is what I call him, LOL), he does the TUL method from what I gather.

[Raipizo]

I do the timed method, except I add about a minute on a week, I've been doing it for probably 7 months now. I started out with counting strikes for awhile and figured about how many times I hit for a minute. Scaled the time back when I moved to gravel and have timed it since. I only do I.p once a day and it seems to be working fine, I do 't have pain or a huge hand.

[shanghai-mantis]