Hey Ross - You're wrong

[Water-quan]

Big deal, they were living in primitive hunter gatherer societies anyway....and still would be if we weren't here.

Actually, most Native Americans were farmers. But at least they'll be getting the benefit of a great education system. Clearly.

As for 'primitive', every time I turn the news on America has murdered or bombed someone.

And it's worth remembering - the millions of Indians who are dead due to collonialism, and most of their descendents, aren't living... at all... never mind in mud huts. I bet you couldn't build a mud hut, by the way.

[Water-quan]

you guys wouldnt mind china dominating the globe then

The Chinese are much more closely related to Indians than White folk... the tables may turn yet...

[bawang]

when atheist left wing liberals are confronted with sacrifice and self preservation, their moral relativism and brutal animalistic nature come to the surface.

if you revel in peoples misery its no longer conquering, its a blood sacrifice to demons. the massive suffering and pain feeds the daemonic power behind america.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Bleeding hearts don't fix problems.
I'm not talking about my expectations, I'm talking about the reality of the circumstance.

I find that people tend to b*tch and complain about the past and point fingers of blame but often those very same people do little or nothing to alleviate whatever the problem is and certainly, in no instances are they offering viable alternatives.

we live in the modern world. I will not accept blame for the the sins of my ancestors, period, deal with it and move on because I'm pretty sure no one else is going to either.

trying to put words in other peoples mouths because of some clunky agenda doesn't do anything for the issue either.

what are the solutions. what do you know about the flow of man and conquering armies? As a man of Scots descent i can tell you that the Scots themselves are a mix of everyone who overran their homelands over the centuries too. You don't see me whining about Norway owing me my heritage rights do you?
As I am born in Canada, I am now a "Canadian" and though I am entitled, I have to jump through hoops to get my UK passport and lo and behold, Scotland is subjugated and joined to England and Wales!


Complaints about native lands will be heard elsewhere.

As a Jew and a Scottsman (Clan MacGreggor) I agree with you whole heartedly...some people love that crutch of victimization, it feeds their fears and their failures and prevents them from living in the present.

[Water-quan]

As a Jew and a Scottsman (Clan MacGreggor) I agree with you whole heartedly...some people love that crutch of victimization, it feeds their fears and their failures and prevents them from living in the present.

Modern people are living in the present.

As a comparison, the Austrian government still retains control of significantly valuable artworks stolen from Jewish families by the Nazis and their sympathisers. A significant number of Jewish families are still trying to get back this property, which belongs to them. At what point should they stop feeling victimised and just let the Austrians have it all? At what point should the rightful owners of the Klimpt paintings have just accepted that they now belong to the Austrian people, courtesy of the Nazis?

At what point should Australian aboriginees stop feeling victimised and accept that they can't have the mineral rights to their land?

The real question is - setting aside the propogandist concept of 'feeling victimised' - why anyone should simply 'let go' of their grievances? Why shouldn't they escalate their grievances instead?

As a side note on this, it's not that I'm saying people - some people - don't like to play a victim card - obviously they do. But, we have to be careful not to take that and falsely generalise to whole peoples, trivialising state level criminality by telling people to 'get over it'. Seriously - look at how people talk about the Indians, and just imagine that was Germans talking about Jews.

[Water-quan]

when atheist left wing liberals are confronted with sacrifice and self preservation, their moral relativism and brutal animalistic nature come to the surface.

Do you mean that atheist liberals have some sort of secret nature, different to all other human beings, which comes to the surface when they are under pressure?

Or do you mean that under situations of extreme stress and duress, human beings might buckle, and find themselves terrified in to giving in to baser, selfish or cowardly instincts?

Either way, is that really a profound thought, or just a statement of the obvious? Or did you think that 'truth' is determined by how much you can keep to your principles when you are placed under extreme duress?

I imagine most people can be tortured in to renouncing whatever they believe. What you mean by 'liberals' God - and you - only knows, but no one group did more to fight the Nazis and Japanese than communists, all over the world. And to try and fight the American government, and its state sponsored terrorism.

[Dragonzbane76]

every time I turn the news on America has murdered or bombed someone.

what news are you watching? fox news ?

[SimonM]

you guys wouldnt mind china dominating the globe then

No, I'm cool with that.

[SimonM]

but no one group did more to fight the Nazis and Japanese than communists,

And what thanks do we get for it? Online would-be pundits with cabbage for brains (don't get me wrong, cabbage is tasty but it's not good for thinking with) go and claim the same nazis we socialists and communists fought so hard against were ideologically the same thing.

And people can make grandiose claims about how there is no morality without faith all they like but for every atheist, rationalist atrocity you can name I can give you a hundred committed in the name of faith.

[David Jamieson]

Modern people are living in the present.

As a comparison, the Austrian government still retains control of significantly valuable artworks stolen from Jewish families by the Nazis and their sympathisers. A significant number of Jewish families are still trying to get back this property, which belongs to them. At what point should they stop feeling victimised and just let the Austrians have it all? At what point should the rightful owners of the Klimpt paintings have just accepted that they now belong to the Austrian people, courtesy of the Nazis?

Ok, you can honestly say this is beyond hearsay and that there isn't talks in place with legitimate claims? Because I am going to call you on that. There are legitimate claims in place and they are investigated in regards to these claims.

At what point should Australian aboriginees stop feeling victimised and accept that they can't have the mineral rights to their land?

At what point are the aborigines going to admit they never mined bauxite, had a use for it and as it's not on sacred land, there's a problem? Sporadic claims popping up after significant discoveries on non-treaty land are questionable to begin with. NOt saying they don't deserve something, but I would say, there is due process to follow.

The real question is - setting aside the propogandist concept of 'feeling victimised' - why anyone should simply 'let go' of their grievances? Why shouldn't they escalate their grievances instead?

There is not really a lot of ground to hear 100 year old grievances from 30 year old men. Same reason I can't get my fililal lands back from the queen that were taken a couple of centuries ago whilst my family was scattered or slaughtered by the English.

As a side note on this, it's not that I'm saying people - some people - don't like to play a victim card - obviously they do.

Are you kidding? Everyone with an agenda of money, land or power plays the victim card when they don't have what they want and it doesn't matter if the claim is legit or not.

But, we have to be careful not to take that and falsely generalise to whole peoples, trivialising state level criminality by telling people to 'get over it'. Seriously - look at how people talk about the Indians, and just imagine that was Germans talking about Jews.

Nobody is generalising a whole people. This is the general state of things when talks or grievances arise. If we are talking about a group, then we are talking about a group, save the weasel words for elsewhere.