stance and preheaven bagua

[Hendrik]

After you have run 16 miles, your body are so tired. If you try to think about anything besides your body, you can take your mind away from your physical pain. When I get tired in my running, I start to count every 4 steps as 1. When I reach my count to 1,000, I'm already 2 miles away.

This concept is so simple that when you make love to your love one, if you can put your mind somewhere else, you can make your love one to have multiple orgasms without even realized.

This is just "mind over body". It has nothing to do with "internal".

you are just trick your body with your mind,

there is nothing mind over body here.

if your body shutdown due to over work and not enough energy or training at this time then you mind trick will not work.

[Scott R. Brown]

I dont buy these totally.

As I told you before, even Samadhi or alter state has different level.
All these Zen stuffs as the story told above are just "blind believe".

EVen in the Shurangama sutra, the 52 states of alter state attainment is laying out clearly.
what happen and what could be extected when one reaches each state. even the buddha has to do it that way. instead of " oh, i am a buddha, you dont know." It is a causal system world with cause and effect. even the buddha has to follow, no exception.

http://www.amazon.com/Shurangama-Sut...der_0881394017

So, again, all these ZEN and Samurai stuffs are fairy tale out of no where.




See, Qi and medirian's are tangible practice in TCM disregards of how one likes to called it biomechanics, bioelectric......etc.



However, these Zen story are just totally out of the reality. not to mention even the Buddha himself has to explain things clearly instead of all the jump to conclusion.


it is very interesting to see you opposing Qi in one way based on physical and accepting Zen unconditionally totally ignore physical.
if you have experience on Zen then share with us what it is and how is it useful for daily living. not to mention, so out of the 52 states of Shurangama sutra, which state have you attained?

Dont give me the Zen... Silence.....etc, which of the 52 States?

if your really knows the non dual and being there, instead of taking "sleeping" and enligtement and silence , then you could go to the first few of the 52 states and scan for the Qi or energy or chakra layers. can you do that?

You are WAY over complicating a very simple ability. If you can't do it you don't know anything about it other than what you have read. I have done it many times probably hundreds of times in the past 30-40 years so it is no big deal to me.

It has got nothing to do with samadhi or 52 stages of mud used to cloud your mind. When you over complicate it with opinions and theories and what Buddha said, you lose it.

But if you are not interested in learning it or developing it, that is your choice. I know it is possible because I do it all the time.

To be clear, not like Shoju, but in a minor ways, on random occasions, in daily life AND in martial arts training.

My experiences give me confidence. Since you either have not had the experience, or have not recognized it when you have had it, you lack the confidence I have!

And that is not meant to be a criticism, just a simple statement of fact!

[Scott R. Brown]

you are just trick your body with your mind,

there is nothing mind over body here.

if your body shutdown due to over work and not enough energy or training at this time then you mind trick will not work.

Once again, you are commenting upon something you have no direct experience with. Your mind can push your body beyond the wall. This is not only anecdotally experienced with marathoners, but other athletes. Once again I have done this a number of times in my life. The mind controls the body. At a certain point, it is true, the mind cannot push the body any further, but there is no way to know just where that specific point is for any particular person at any particular time until it occurs.

[YouKnowWho]

you are just trick your body with your mind,

there is nothing mind over body here.

if your body shutdown due to over work and not enough energy or training at this time then you mind trick will not work.

How long can you hold your horse stance? If you don't remove your mind away from your body, you won't be able to hold your horse stance for more than 5 minutes. Will your body shut down after 5 minutes of horse stance? I don't think so. Why most people could not hold their horse stance to pass 5 minutes marker? Because their body tell their mind that "There is so much pain and their body can't continue any more". This is "body over mind".

Again, when we are talking about "mind over body", we still don't need to bring the word "internal' into the discussion. I'm very allergy to the word "internal".

[Scott R. Brown]

When one has no attachment to the body, form, or the pain, the body is free to achieve a fuller potential of its abilities, "of itself". In the modern world the ones who come closest to experiencing this principle first hand are elite athletes.

For most people it is the mind that interferes with performance. If you can learn to let the body perform without the mind inteferring then seemingly unbelievable results occur!

[Scott R. Brown]

If we just accept the word "internal" refers to the mind, or mental training, it takes away all the baggage that tends to get attached to the word.

[Hendrik]

You are WAY over complicating a very simple ability. If you can't do it you don't know anything about it other than what you have read.

I have done it many times probably hundreds of times in the past 30-40 years so it is no big deal to me.

It has got nothing to do with samadhi or 52 stages of mud used to cloud your mind. When you over complicate it with opinions and theories and what Buddha said, you lose it.

But if you are not interested in learning it or developing it, that is your choice. I know it is possible because I do it all the time.

To be clear, not like Shoju, but in a minor ways, on random occasions, in daily life AND in martial arts training.

My experiences give me confidence. Since you either have not had the experience, or have not recognized it when you have had it, you lack the confidence I have!

And that is not meant to be a criticism, just a simple statement of fact!

No offending means, but straight talk.


I really dont buy what your idea.
If you have done it hundreds of times, done what? attack by a group of samurai ?


have done the following hundreds of times?
"If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!"



if you have done it for hundreds of times why dont you share it with all of us here with details. how do you do it?

What is
if your eye is true and your mind unobstructed,?

how to do it how to get there? mind which mind? unobstructed? what is obstructed?
eyes? which eyes? true what true what false?






See, the Buddha, in the Shurangama sutra, clearly address the 52 states of attainment.

so, the expectation is the same, you have done hundreds of time? does what? how? how many samurai attack you? unbostructed mind?.....? clearly share with us. otherwise anyone can make any claim. that is just a gimmic of a cult preaching.

[Hendrik]

How long can you hold your horse stance? If you don't remove your mind away from your body, you won't be able to hold your horse stance for more than 5 minutes. Will your body shut down after 5 minutes of horse stance? I don't think so. Why most people could not hold their horse stance to pass 5 minutes marker?

Because their body tell their mind that "There is so much pain and their body can't continue any more". This is "body over mind".

Again, when we are talking about "mind over body", we still don't need to bring the word "internal' into the discussion. I'm very allergy to the word "internal".

You seems to think if you cant do it the rest of the world is wrong.

1,
I really dont buy your idea on


If you don't remove your mind away from your body, you won't be able to hold your horse stance for more than 5 minutes.

anyone who is a beginner or amature for not more then a year old training, who train internal art could hold the stance with ease for more then 20 mins with the mind fully aware the body.

for example

Here at MIT where the top intelligent humans goes to school there.

http://web.mit.edu/kungfu/Testimonials.html


2, Chinese Internal art is something needs to be learn similar to a technology.
you can be allegy to the word "internal" and that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

I can be allegy to anything but that is just me.

[YouKnowWho]

who train internal art could hold the stance with ease for more then 20 mins with the mind fully aware the body.

Can you find any youtube clip to prove it?

[Hendrik]

If we just accept the word "internal" refers to the mind, or mental training, it takes away all the baggage that tends to get attached to the word.

The following is internal.

it is not a mental training; it is going beyond mental and physical and energy or Qi....


If your Zen cant get you here, you dont even have the penetration power of penetrating the First Aggregate, so forget about penetrating all Five aggregate and attaining the non dual.

lots of people in the past/present/future think they are enligtent.....
but actually they dont even reach or just reach the first state of first aggregate but deluding themselve thinking they know it all.

read the 52 states and see for oneself where one is. instead of deluding oneself in one's day dreaming and going the wrong path.



http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf


Page 280.


The Ten States Affected by the First Aggregate of Form (Rupa)

‘ânanda, when you sit in meditation, if your thoughts are
wiped out, the state (of your mind), now free from them, will
be clear, and will not be changed by either stillness or disturbance.
In this state, both remembrance and forgetfulness are
one undivided whole.

While in it and before realizing samà-
dhi, you are like a man whose eyes are clear but who is still in
the dark, for though your mind is clear, it does not yet shine.
This is the aggregate of form that conditions your meditation.
If your mind radiates, you will clearly perceive all the ten directions
of space. This disappearance of darkness is called the
ending of råpa and you will then leap over and beyond the turbid
kalpa, the main cause of which is your wrong thinking.

1. ‘ânanda, in this profound and clear state of your
penetrating mind, the four elements cease to hinder you, and
after a little, your body will be free from all hindrance. This is
your clear mind spreading to its objects and shows the
effectiveness of your meditation, the temporary achievement
of which does not mean that you are a saint. If you do not
regard it as such, it is an excellent progressive stage, but if
you do, you will succumb to demons.


2. ‘ânanda, in this profound and clear state of your
penetrating mind, you will be able to discern everything
clearly in your body and will suddenly see lively tape-worms.
This is your clear mind spreading in your body and shows its
effective functioning, the temporary achievement of which
does not mean that you are a saint. If you do not regard it as
such, it is an excellent progressive stage, but if you do, you
will succumb to demons.


3.’ ‘Further, in this state of mind which penetrates both
within and without, your spirit and faculties, though not your
body, will intermingle as principals (hosts) and accessories
(guests) and suddenly you will hear a voice in the air preaching
the Dharma or proclaiming its secret meaning in the ten
directions.




In conclusion, there are lots of indepth training and states we the modern man doesnt know and cant reach... using a modern man thinking pattern to grasp is very missleading.

[Hendrik]

Can you find any youtube clip to prove it?

sure, one cant B$ing in MIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9G4K...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkEn...layer_embedded


http://www.yelp.com/biz/mit-qigong-club-cambridge

[YouKnowWho]

sure, one cant B$ing in MIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9G4K...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkEn...layer_embedded


http://www.yelp.com/biz/mit-qigong-club-cambridge

Are you pulling my legs?

That's not "horse stance". I could stand like that for 2 hours if I want to.

This is "horse stance".

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...0&tx=144&ty=66

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeUDl6uMIjc

[Hendrik]

Are you pulling my legs?

That's not "horse stance". I could stand like that for 2 hours if I want to.

This is "horse stance".

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...0&tx=144&ty=66

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeUDl6uMIjc

OK.

You have youtube to proof you can stand for 1hour?
just 1 hour, not even two.

how about 20 mins straight similar to the MIT guys. just 20 mins. can you do it? show us.

[Razaunida]

wrong it has everything to do with Chinese martial arts.

this got moved to the internal forum because the moderators don't know what the 8 basic stances are.

no wonder people resort to bad kickboxing...the root has been cut. Pathetic and shameful. My rest is over, back to training.

[YouKnowWho]

This thread just remind me the WC thread "Knife Edge Concept" (That whole thread is gone now).

just 20 mins. can you do it? show us.

No interest to do that. It's not my cup of tea.