Jow for iron palm conditioning- needed, waste of time, or counterproductive?

[faxiapreta]

At least one person has claimed that jow is an important part of IP conditioning. He also claimed that the improper use of it was responsible for making his bones brittle by leaching the calcium from the bones.

This brings up a question:

There are already scientifically proven methods for hardening and increasing bone density. Simply hitting harder and harder surfaces or lifting heavier and heavier weights in a progressive manner has been shown conclusively to increase bone density.

Why would one want to use a substance that has no scientific evidence of working, while at the same time, potentially weakening the very structure one is trying to harden? Why not simply go with the proven method without adding in the potentially dangerous, unproven method?

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am 66 years old, and for most of my life I have been exposed to Chinese Medicine in one form or another. I have found accupuncture and accupressure to work in many cases. Sometimes immediately, and sometimes over time. The one thing that I have always been skeptical of has been jow. I do not believe anything can prevent you from bruising or barking the skin from your hands if you strike hard or rough surfaces. It is not really necessary to abuse the hands to make them into strong weapons. I have on several occasions told how I trained my hands for strong and hard strikes, and the only thing I used was something called Corn Husker's Lotion. It is a glycerin based lotion that will indeed make large callouses form at the point of impact. I can not say what it does to the bones, but I know that my hands can cause injury, and I have never abused them to that extent.

[TenTigers]

At least one person has claimed that jow is an important part of IP conditioning. He also claimed that the improper use of it was responsible for making his bones brittle by leaching the calcium from the bones.

This brings up a question:

There are already scientifically proven methods for hardening and increasing bone density. Simply hitting harder and harder surfaces or lifting heavier and heavier weights in a progressive manner has been shown conclusively to increase bone density.

Why would one want to use a substance that has no scientific evidence of working, while at the same time, potentially weakening the very structure one is trying to harden? Why not simply go with the proven method without adding in the potentially dangerous, unproven method?

it was dangerous and stupid. According to my Sifu, that formula is used as a sort of "tempering" agent, used in advanced stages, after the hand has already been conditioned.
That being said, after my experience, I threw the formula down the drain.
I am doing standard IP training, now, much more gradually, and with a better jow formula. So far, no problems.

[Razaunida]

here is an idea.


Look at the individual herbs in the formula.......and research them.

Anything people on here will only allow you an opportunity to waste everyone's time by saying, "Says who" or "prove it"

Go ahead...pubmed..medline...google scholar. Use it and draw up your own conclusions.

Or better yet, don't use it, and get arthritis...happy day!

[Razaunida]

you are also a tool for having no idea what bone remodeling is. You are stupid and must be poor so I will suggest you sit in on a high school biology class.

Look at all of the mechanisms of bone remodeling and compare the parts with the specific herbs. Good luck with that. If you really want to know you can find out in less time than asking people here.

[faxiapreta]

you are also a tool for having no idea what bone remodeling is. You are stupid and must be poor so I will suggest you sit in on a high school biology class.

Look at all of the mechanisms of bone remodeling and compare the parts with the specific herbs. Good luck with that. If you really want to know you can find out in less time than asking people here.

Speaking of stupid...

Maybe, gasp, putting herbs on your skin has absolutely nothing to do with bone remodeling.

[mooyingmantis]

I have practiced iron palm for decades. For years I did the striking without the use of jow. Over the last decade I have done the training with the use of a few different formulas.

I switched to using jow because I am older (mid 50s) and I am more careful about my health.

Can I prove that it works? No
Can I say with certainty that it increases healing? No
Have I noticed a difference in my hand's toughness? No
Will I still continue to use it? Yes

So, if I have not really noticed a difference why continue using it?

First, it is simply a part of the tradition of iron palm and I find cultural traditions interesting.
Second, people who know far more about Chinese medicine and herbalism than I do recommend it.
Finally, I make my own at little cost and have received gifts of jow from a few friends. So, my idea is that if it doesn't hurt and may help (even if only a placebo effect) why not use it.

I am honest about these things with my students who practice iron palm and provide jow, if they want it, for just the cost of the herbs.

I have not experienced ANY negative effects from iron palm training. Though I also must admit that I do not train it more than two 100 day training cycles per year. Unlike most, I take a few months off in between training cycles to promote healing. This is not the traditional method, but it is what I feel comfortable with and what works best with my schedule.

[ginosifu]

Is there real proof one way or they other that Jow works or not? Think of your skin, it has pores right? sweat comes out yes? is there any way that liquids can go in? People of all cultures massage liquids / oils / creams on thier skin to promote some type of affect yes?

Massaging any alcohol into your skin will help disapate blood clots and bruising if the skin can absorb it, yes? Part of the effect of jow is to disburse blood clots and move blood.

If TCM is correct, then adding other herbs into the alcohol will be absorbed into the skin as well. I can not prove that any thing has worked or not worked but, I will have many people that have know me for more than 15 years will back me up when I say that my hands are thicker, way thicker. The lady at the hospitol who tried to put an IV into the back of my hand will swear that my hand was made of leather. She could not get the needle into my skin and had to move to the fold of my arm. All of my students will tell you that when I hit them, my hands feel denser than a normal persons hand hitting them. Like having a roll of quarters in my hand when I hit them.

Faxiapreta:

In a controlled environment, If you would let me hit you (just a light hit, no fighting), I can demonstrate what my hands feel like (agiain just a demonstration not trying to hurt you). I guarrantee you will say that there is something different about my hands and how they felt.

ginosifu

[faxiapreta]

In a controlled environment, If you would let me hit you (just a light hit, no fighting), I can demonstrate what my hands feel like (agiain just a demonstration not trying to hurt you). I guarrantee you will say that there is something different about my hands and how they felt.

I guarantee your hits won't be nearly as hard as a pro boxer.

BTW, if you hit me, I will absolutely be hitting you also.

[faxiapreta]

Is there real proof one way or they other that Jow works or not? Think of your skin, it has pores right? sweat comes out yes? is there any way that liquids can go in? People of all cultures massage liquids / oils / creams on thier skin to promote some type of affect yes?

Speaking of snake oil...

Fortunately for most people's health, few substances are able to penetrate the skin in a very effective manner. If the skin/blood barrier was easily penetrated, many dangerous substances would be constantly entering the blood stream in toxic amounts.

But I tell you what. Take something that does pass easily though the skin like DMSO and start mixing it in with other substances to get them to penetrate the skin. You'll soon find out the toxic effects of what would happen if things were easily passing through the skin barrier.

Massaging any alcohol into your skin will help disapate blood clots and bruising if the skin can absorb it, yes? Part of the effect of jow is to disburse blood clots and move blood.

You must be joking, right? Disbursing blood clots with rubbing alcohol? Give me a break. You want to know what it would be like if alcohol was actually passing through the skin. Put some alcohol on an open wound and you'll see the effect of alcohol passing through the skin.

Better yet, drink it. That will pass right through the lining of the stomach and intestines, which is what you are claiming is happening through the skin. Post your results after you get out of the emergency room.

If TCM is correct, then adding other herbs into the alcohol will be absorbed into the skin as well.

Try putting your various substances into DMSO and get back to me in a few years when you have kidney and liver failure.

Do you understand why you cannot eat many substances? Obviously, you don't. Because the stomach and intenstines don't have the same barrier the skin does. If the skin did not have that barrier, coming into contact with toxic substances would have the same effect of ingesting them orally.

Go back to high school and pay attention in basic science classes this time, or at least develop some critical thinking and common sense.

[TenTigers]

look, if you are going to condition your hands, you need to do it on a regular basis. Gradual and continuous stress placed upon the bone will increase its density.
(wolf's law)

That being said, jow serves two purposes;

one, it promotes quicker healing, dispersing clots, stagnation, increases circulation, etc. In this way, you can maintain your training/conditioning regimen without interruption due to bruising.

Two-there are also other herbs that nourish the bone and tissue, aiding in not only the healing process, but the strengthening process as well.

(there are other aspects of TCM in jow such as tonifying organs affected by the training, ch'i circulation, etc but I don't want to go into that, rather concentrate on IP on a basic level. Save the other stuff for the herbal experts like plumdragon and Dale Dugas, and others more qualified to speak on that.

It's not magic, or snake oil, it's simply traditional practice.
Does it work? Well, it certainly seems to.
Of course, IP is only one small part of the whole pie-actually part of a part-tool development.
Is it necessary? Nope. Not every style practiced IP. Just like not every style practiced using iron rings. It's a personal choice.

[TenTigers]

Speaking of snake oil...

Fortunately for most people's health, few substances are able to penetrate the skin in a very effective manner. If the skin/blood barrier was easily penetrated, many dangerous substances would be constantly entering the blood stream in toxic amounts.












If the skin did not have that barrier, coming into contact with toxic substances would have the same effect of ingesting them orally.

Go back to high school and pay attention in basic science classes this time, or at least develop some critical thinking and common sense.

Our skin, the largest eliminatory organ in the body and our first line of immunity, is permeable to all chemicals. Medical research shows that significant amounts of cosmetic ingredients, including carcinogenic substances, penetrate the skin and end up in the blood stream. Many chemicals in cosmetics don’t cause obvious signs of toxicity on the skin but slowly poison us thorough repeated use.
This makes perfect sense too:
Today, the administration of drugs and medicines is often through transdermal skin patches. This has been shown to be up to 95% more effective than oral medication. .
This is both good and bad for us. Good because it means our skin can be fed, nourished and treated from the outside with some wonderful substances.
such as dit da jow.

;-p

[faxiapreta]

Our skin, the largest eliminatory organ in the body and our first line of immunity, is permeable to all chemicals. Medical research shows that significant amounts of cosmetic ingredients, including carcinogenic substances, penetrate the skin and end up in the blood stream. Many chemicals in cosmetics don’t cause obvious signs of toxicity on the skin but slowly poison us thorough repeated use.
This makes perfect sense too:
Today, the administration of drugs and medicines is often through transdermal skin patches. This has been shown to be up to 95% more effective than oral medication. .
This is both good and bad for us. Good because it means our skin can be fed, nourished and treated from the outside with some wonderful substances.
such as dit da jow.

;-p

You think dermal absorption of substances is more efficient that oral ingestion? Is that what you are saying?

If so, you couldn't be more wrong.

Of course you can easily prove this. Start ingesting all the substances that come into contact with your skin. See how long it takes for you to develop liver or kidney failure.

Here's a great experiment and I'll do it with you. We'll both take a quart of radiator antifreeze. I will douse my skin with that quart. You drink it. Then we'll see which mechanism allowed for absorption.

[TenTigers]

You think dermal absorption of substances is more efficient that oral ingestion? Is that what you are saying?

If so, you couldn't be more wrong.

Of course you can easily prove this. Start ingesting all the substances that come into contact with your skin. See how long it takes for you to develop liver or kidney failure.

no, of course not, and that is not what we're saying. Of course, if you want to run off on a tangent, enjoy.
Jow is absorbed into the skin, at the location of the injury. You bruise your hand, you rub jow into your hand.
You have sore muscles, you rub Jeng Guat Soi or icy hot, or arnica gel into that affected area. You certainly don't ingest it.
Congratulations, you started an intelligent topic, and by your involvement in it, brought it right down to stupid again.
Attaboy.

[TenTigers]

dude, up your meds....seriously.
You need to stay on topic. You seem so intent on "being right," that you take things out of context and harp on it, and go off on tangents.
The subjects you bring up are interesting, but you need to chill a bit and allow for an intelligent discourse.
It seems we've had this identical conversation before with Mysterious Power.
hmmm.....