Jow for iron palm conditioning- needed, waste of time, or counterproductive?

[faxiapreta]

At least one person has claimed that jow is an important part of IP conditioning. He also claimed that the improper use of it was responsible for making his bones brittle by leaching the calcium from the bones.

This brings up a question:

There are already scientifically proven methods for hardening and increasing bone density. Simply hitting harder and harder surfaces or lifting heavier and heavier weights in a progressive manner has been shown conclusively to increase bone density.

Why would one want to use a substance that has no scientific evidence of working, while at the same time, potentially weakening the very structure one is trying to harden? Why not simply go with the proven method without adding in the potentially dangerous, unproven method?

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am 66 years old, and for most of my life I have been exposed to Chinese Medicine in one form or another. I have found accupuncture and accupressure to work in many cases. Sometimes immediately, and sometimes over time. The one thing that I have always been skeptical of has been jow. I do not believe anything can prevent you from bruising or barking the skin from your hands if you strike hard or rough surfaces. It is not really necessary to abuse the hands to make them into strong weapons. I have on several occasions told how I trained my hands for strong and hard strikes, and the only thing I used was something called Corn Husker's Lotion. It is a glycerin based lotion that will indeed make large callouses form at the point of impact. I can not say what it does to the bones, but I know that my hands can cause injury, and I have never abused them to that extent.

[TenTigers]

At least one person has claimed that jow is an important part of IP conditioning. He also claimed that the improper use of it was responsible for making his bones brittle by leaching the calcium from the bones.

This brings up a question:

There are already scientifically proven methods for hardening and increasing bone density. Simply hitting harder and harder surfaces or lifting heavier and heavier weights in a progressive manner has been shown conclusively to increase bone density.

Why would one want to use a substance that has no scientific evidence of working, while at the same time, potentially weakening the very structure one is trying to harden? Why not simply go with the proven method without adding in the potentially dangerous, unproven method?

it was dangerous and stupid. According to my Sifu, that formula is used as a sort of "tempering" agent, used in advanced stages, after the hand has already been conditioned.
That being said, after my experience, I threw the formula down the drain.
I am doing standard IP training, now, much more gradually, and with a better jow formula. So far, no problems.

[Razaunida]

here is an idea.


Look at the individual herbs in the formula.......and research them.

Anything people on here will only allow you an opportunity to waste everyone's time by saying, "Says who" or "prove it"

Go ahead...pubmed..medline...google scholar. Use it and draw up your own conclusions.

Or better yet, don't use it, and get arthritis...happy day!

[Razaunida]

you are also a tool for having no idea what bone remodeling is. You are stupid and must be poor so I will suggest you sit in on a high school biology class.

Look at all of the mechanisms of bone remodeling and compare the parts with the specific herbs. Good luck with that. If you really want to know you can find out in less time than asking people here.

[faxiapreta]

you are also a tool for having no idea what bone remodeling is. You are stupid and must be poor so I will suggest you sit in on a high school biology class.

Look at all of the mechanisms of bone remodeling and compare the parts with the specific herbs. Good luck with that. If you really want to know you can find out in less time than asking people here.

Speaking of stupid...

Maybe, gasp, putting herbs on your skin has absolutely nothing to do with bone remodeling.

[Razaunida]

Speaking of stupid...

Maybe, gasp, putting herbs on your skin has absolutely nothing to do with bone remodeling.

You know...because you assume to know, yet have not researched the topic. You want the opinion of others so you can tell them that they are wrong.

Perhaps you are a waste of oxygen and in person I bet you are a bitach. I bet you cower and hold the pockets of better men.

[mooyingmantis]

I have practiced iron palm for decades. For years I did the striking without the use of jow. Over the last decade I have done the training with the use of a few different formulas.

I switched to using jow because I am older (mid 50s) and I am more careful about my health.

Can I prove that it works? No
Can I say with certainty that it increases healing? No
Have I noticed a difference in my hand's toughness? No
Will I still continue to use it? Yes

So, if I have not really noticed a difference why continue using it?

First, it is simply a part of the tradition of iron palm and I find cultural traditions interesting.
Second, people who know far more about Chinese medicine and herbalism than I do recommend it.
Finally, I make my own at little cost and have received gifts of jow from a few friends. So, my idea is that if it doesn't hurt and may help (even if only a placebo effect) why not use it.

I am honest about these things with my students who practice iron palm and provide jow, if they want it, for just the cost of the herbs.

I have not experienced ANY negative effects from iron palm training. Though I also must admit that I do not train it more than two 100 day training cycles per year. Unlike most, I take a few months off in between training cycles to promote healing. This is not the traditional method, but it is what I feel comfortable with and what works best with my schedule.

[ginosifu]

Is there real proof one way or they other that Jow works or not? Think of your skin, it has pores right? sweat comes out yes? is there any way that liquids can go in? People of all cultures massage liquids / oils / creams on thier skin to promote some type of affect yes?

Massaging any alcohol into your skin will help disapate blood clots and bruising if the skin can absorb it, yes? Part of the effect of jow is to disburse blood clots and move blood.

If TCM is correct, then adding other herbs into the alcohol will be absorbed into the skin as well. I can not prove that any thing has worked or not worked but, I will have many people that have know me for more than 15 years will back me up when I say that my hands are thicker, way thicker. The lady at the hospitol who tried to put an IV into the back of my hand will swear that my hand was made of leather. She could not get the needle into my skin and had to move to the fold of my arm. All of my students will tell you that when I hit them, my hands feel denser than a normal persons hand hitting them. Like having a roll of quarters in my hand when I hit them.

Faxiapreta:

In a controlled environment, If you would let me hit you (just a light hit, no fighting), I can demonstrate what my hands feel like (agiain just a demonstration not trying to hurt you). I guarrantee you will say that there is something different about my hands and how they felt.

ginosifu

[IronWeasel]

At least one person has claimed that jow is an important part of IP conditioning. He also claimed that the improper use of it was responsible for making his bones brittle by leaching the calcium from the bones.

This brings up a question:

There are already scientifically proven methods for hardening and increasing bone density. Simply hitting harder and harder surfaces or lifting heavier and heavier weights in a progressive manner has been shown conclusively to increase bone density.

Why would one want to use a substance that has no scientific evidence of working, while at the same time, potentially weakening the very structure one is trying to harden? Why not simply go with the proven method without adding in the potentially dangerous, unproven method?

Not dangerous for the several generations that have trained this (our) way.

Proven by many to be safe and successful.

The right "jow" and proper training are necessary.

Our teacher has trained his hane without medicine (Karate), and then with medicine and a better method (Iron Palm). The difference is night and day.

[donjitsu2]

Personally I don't use any jow for my "Iron Hand" (if you can even call it that) training.

I've used it in the past and it seemed to help with bruising a little. But I find that witch hazel and rubbing alcohol (I like the winter green) work about as well.

The best method, for me, is to run my hands under hot for a minute or two then switch to cold water for a minute or two. I'll alternate between the two several times.

Great thing about the hot/cold water method is...it's free. Which means I can do it several times a day over the course of a day - or a few days depending on how bad I bang my hands up.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner