Jow for iron palm conditioning- needed, waste of time, or counterproductive?

[faxiapreta]

fallacy?

you tell me the bodies of medicine that use it?

Here are some of the things that have been shown to be affected by the placebo effect.


Asthma
Benign prostatic enlargement
Crohn's disease
Depression
Epilepsy
Erectile dysfunction
Food allergy
Gastric and duodenal ulcers
Headache
Heart failure, congestive
Herpes simplex
Hypertension
Irritable bowel syndrome
Migraine prophylaxis
Multiple sclerosis
Nausea
Pain
Panic disorders
Parkinson's disease
Psoriatic arthritis
Reflux esophagitis
Rheumatic diseases
Molar extraction swelling
Ulcerative colitis




60% of Israel physicians found have used placebos in their medical practice.

50% of American doctors use placebos.

20% of Canadian doctors use placebos.

48% of Danish general practitioners have prescribed a placebo antibiotics for viral infections, and vitamins for fatigue.

and as tgy is not a biochemist, why leave it to him. He's not a pharmacologist either, why leave it to him?

He simply discredits your arguments a bit more eloquently that I do.

Why don't you simply take dale up on his offer and try it for yourself and see for yourself. It's all too obvious you don't believe what we are telling you or what our experiences are.

Because I understand all the effort and trouble I would need to go through to attempt to validate something I wouldn't even need to use in the first place.

You can have your own empirical evidence within a matter of days if you chose to do so! It can happen! you CAN understand!

It takes more than a few days and is far from simple.

[David Jamieson]

Here are some of the things that have been shown to be affected by the placebo effect.


Asthma
Benign prostatic enlargement
Crohn's disease]
Depression
Epilepsy
Erectile dysfunction[
Food allergy
Gastric and duodenal ulcers[
Headache
Heart failure, congestive
Herpes simplex
Hypertension
Irritable bowel syndrome
Migraine prophylaxis[
Multiple sclerosis
Nausea
Pain
Panic disorders
Parkinson's disease
Psoriatic arthritis[
Reflux esophagitis
Rheumatic diseases
Molar extraction swelling
Ulcerative colitis




60% of Israel physicians found have used placebos in their medical practice.

50% of American doctors use placebos.

20% of Canadian doctors use placebos.

48% of Danish general practitioners have prescribed a placebo antibiotics for viral infections, and vitamins for fatigue.

You do realize this is a drop in the bucket right. Also, because it was used has ZERO bearing on efficacy or consistency of efficacy.

He simply discredits your arguments a bit more eloquently that I do.

He discredited nothing I said. He pointed out his observations and stated his opinions based on what he knows. Yes he is an eloquent species of svelt bear isn't he? A lovely man I am certain. No offense TGY, I mean that in a strictly platonic way.

Because I understand all the effort and trouble I would need to go through to attempt to validate something I wouldn't even need to use in the first place.

wow, just wow! And yet you demand it of people here even though right here you reject it outright without ever having tried it. Hmmmn, it's gonna be hard for you to credit anything, never mind discredit. This isn't critical, it's lazy and abusive.

It takes more than a few days and is far from simple.

No, it doesn't take long, yeah, probably more than a few days, but otherwise quite simple. Would you like directions for templates on how to quickly organize a control group and how to conduct a test? that is readily available. Most of us learned how in high school or earlier.

If you just want empirical evidence, then yeah, it only takes a few days and a couple of bruises and maybe three varieties of jow.

[Northwind]

\
That's pretty much what the tin foil hat guy downtown says when I ask him about how is hat works.

Great! Maybe you should go debate with him then.
Or maybe you should prove that you are not the result of a placebo effect to us. We've seen nothing about who you are at all, so, mr. tin foil hat, prove your existence, you annoying little gnat.

[David Jamieson]

Great! Maybe you should go debate with him then.
Or maybe you should prove that you are not the result of a placebo effect to us. We've seen nothing about who you are at all, so, mr. tin foil hat, prove your existence, you annoying little gnat.

It's Dale Gribble the Lawn Jockey that was formerly the non-artist known as knife fighter.

Mind you, it might not be either.

This guy "seems" a little more well educated.

But then, it could be a chick too.

who knows. Just a net ghost being all drama for the most part.
Certainly freed me from a boring drag through SQL queries today though.

[faxiapreta]

wow, just wow! And yet you demand it of people here even though right here you reject it outright without ever having tried it. Hmmmn, it's gonna be hard for you to credit anything, never mind discredit. This isn't critical, it's lazy and abusive.

I never said I've never tried it. I've tried it plenty.

I said I'm not interested in going through the rigamarole of doing an objective testing protocol that involves a decent sample size.

No, it doesn't take long, yeah, probably more than a few days, but otherwise quite simple. Would you like directions for templates on how to quickly organize a control group and how to conduct a test? that is readily available. Most of us learned how in high school or earlier..

If you just want empirical evidence, then yeah, it only takes a few days and a couple of bruises and maybe three varieties of jow.

A few days for an injury to heal time several different injuries of roughly the same type and severity times each protocol plus a number of different subjects = far more than a few days.

[ginosifu]

Fraxiapreta:

I am going to help you the best I can for right now. Like I said before I don't remember all the old stuff I researched years ago but I will give you leads on researching some of this stuff your self.

This is a list of common herbal products found in Jow. There Chinese name + there english name and links to where you can find info about them.

CHINESE NAME - ENGLISH NAME - LINKS

San Qi - Panax Notogensing http://www.chinesenaturalherbs.com/b...otoginseng.htm

Hong Hua - Safflower http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/safflower.html

Moyao - Myrrh http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catal...products_id/41

Dang Gui - Angelica http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/in...roduct=161&pg=

Zhang Nao - Camphor http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catal...roducts_id/100

Ru Xiang - Frankencence http://alternativehealing.org/ru_xiang.htm

This can be a start to research TCM and herbalism. Another product of research can be types of alcohol used. The traditional Chinese alcohol was Ring Wine (Liquor). I use Vodka it's a bit cheaper but not quite as viscuous as Rice Wine.

I also gave you several different websites and there are plenty more out there.

ginosifu

[Razaunida]

thread closed

[faxiapreta]

Fraxiapreta:

I am going to help you the best I can for right now. Like I said before I don't remember all the old stuff I researched years ago but I will give you leads on researching some of this stuff your self.

This is a list of common herbal products found in Jow. There Chinese name + there english name and links to where you can find info about them.

CHINESE NAME - ENGLISH NAME - LINKS

San Qi - Panax Notogensing http://www.chinesenaturalherbs.com/b...otoginseng.htm

Hong Hua - Safflower http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/safflower.html

Moyao - Myrrh http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catal...products_id/41

Dang Gui - Angelica http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/in...roduct=161&pg=

Zhang Nao - Camphor http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catal...roducts_id/100

Ru Xiang - Frankencence http://alternativehealing.org/ru_xiang.htm

This can be a start to research TCM and herbalism. Another product of research can be types of alcohol used. The traditional Chinese alcohol was Ring Wine (Liquor). I use Vodka it's a bit cheaper but not quite as viscuous as Rice Wine.

I also gave you several different websites and there are plenty more out there.

ginosifu

Those are links to herbs I got from the other guy, which I looked into.

Like I said, I was unable to find scientific evidence for what you guys are claiming.

[David Jamieson]

I never said I've never tried it. I've tried it plenty.

I said I'm not interested in going through the rigamarole of doing an objective testing protocol that involves a decent sample size.

...then why do you rag on people to present you with it? Seems a bit arbitrary, seems a bit of a ghost chase, seems like you are wasting our time here looking for scientific evidence we've told you doesn't exist in the format you are asking for it in.

However, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence and reams of empirical data to support the truth of it.

Can you prove the sky is blue? Scientifically and if so, what shade is it? Why is it that particular shade sometimes but not others. You see, some of that you could totally prove with scientific method and a lot of it is empirical or self evident through direct observation. Why do you think that self evidential evidence is unacceptable. Also, if you are convinced that jow doesn't work, may I ask what types you used and what for?

A few days for an injury to heal time several different injuries of roughly the same type and severity times each protocol plus a number of different subjects = far more than a few days.

I believe I already spoke to that point at the end of my last post. Gee thanks for paying attention!



Do you know that they use drugs that are FDA approved and in active use that they do NOT know how they work at all and are just happy that they do through pleasant surprise!

How do drugs prevent seizures? Strange to say, most of the drugs used in treating epilepsy today were discovered to have anti-epileptic properties by chance. We have used these drugs with great benefit for years without really knowing how they work.

drugs such as; Dilantin, Tegretol, Epilim.
They've been studied and they know that these drugs work but they do NOT know why they work.

So, that's a major affliction, far beyond something such as minor as a bruise or microfracture.

The world is not black and white. Your entire premise is off and your meaning for being here in this forum is suspect.

[faxiapreta]

...then why do you rag on people to present you with it?

Because they are the ones using it and making claims for it.

I have no interest in using it unless there is some actual scientific evidence. Even then, my injuries heal fine and my bones are plenty strong enough.

Also, if you are convinced that jow doesn't work, may I ask what types you used and what for?

I have no idea what the ingredients were. I got them from people who swore by them. I used them for tissue soreness, bruises, sprains, scars, and injuries.

Do you know that they use drugs that are FDA approved and in active use that they do NOT know how they work at all and are just happy that they do through pleasant surprise!

And they test them first in controlled studies, often against placebos.

[David Jamieson]

Because they are the ones using it and making claims for it.

I have no interest in using it unless there is some actual scientific evidence. Even then, my injuries heal fine and my bones are plenty strong enough.




I have no idea what the ingredients were. I got them from people who swore by them. I used them for tissue soreness, bruises, sprains, scars, and injuries.




And they test them first in controlled studies, often against placebos.

Now you are in circles. I just told you that they worked by surprise. They were accidents and TO DATE have no explanation for how they work. Why you trying to change that point?

your argument is getting more and more invalid.

better get geordy laforge working on your shields there cap'n!
before the romulans de-cloak and shoot some common sense into your bulkheads.

[faxiapreta]

Now you are in circles. I just told you that they worked by surprise. They were accidents and TO DATE have no explanation for how they work. Why you trying to change that point?

"Working by surprise" is irrelevant. Lots of things "work by surprise". What is relevant (and telling compared to the jow arguement) is that they are tested to flesh out whether or not they have the ability to "work" consistently and in a reproducible manner and to determine the extent of any dangerous side effects.

[David Jamieson]

"Working by surprise" is irrelevant. Lots of things "work by surprise". What is relevant (and telling compared to the jow arguement) is that they are tested to flesh out whether or not they have the ability to "work" consistently and in a reproducible manner and to determine the extent of any dangerous side effects.

And after hundreds of years of Jow production and use, suddenly you are born, somehow grow up and make it all the way into this forum to proclaim that it is all wrong and we are all stupid because we can't give you what doesn't exist in the format which you are demanding it.

You're not making any sense at all now.

You excuse one hand whilst allowing the other.

I wonder what sort of relationships you have in real life. I have a sneaking feeling that some of them are pretty strained due to your bullheadedness.

[Dale Dugas]

So you will not use anything unless its backed up by scientific proof, yet you are worried about side effects. Western Pharmaceticals are rampant with various drugs that in the beginning work wonders, and then people start having serious problems with them.

Big Pharma has ridiculous amounts of drugs that are proven to do many things, and then people start dying, have rather serious side effects, and then the drugs are taken off the market.

So where is your argument here? You cannot have it both ways.

No one has died using my liniments, nor any that I know of in the USA.

Bextra has killed more people than Dit Da Jow.

You, sir, have something seriously wrong with you.

good luck in life, you are seriously going to need it.

[faxiapreta]

So you will not use anything unless its backed up by scientific proof, yet you are worried about side effects. Western Pharmaceticals are rampant with various drugs that in the beginning work wonders, and then people start having serious problems with them.

Big Pharma has ridiculous amounts of drugs that are proven to do many things, and then people start dying, have rather serious side effects, and then the drugs are taken off the market.

So where is your argument here? You cannot have it both ways.

No one has died using my liniments, nor any that I know of in the USA.

Bextra has killed more people than Dit Da Jow.

You, sir, have something seriously wrong with you.

good luck in life, you are seriously going to need it.

As I stated in the earlier, more than likely your liniments are doing nothing other than giving a placebo effect.

That being said, if we were to assume that your treatments did have some type of medicinal effect, they more than likely do have some type of side effects, maybe of the longer-term variety. If this is the case, you may very well be doing significant damage over the long term.

By not doing scientific testing in an attempt to determine these side effects you are essentially acting in an immoral manner.

Fortunately for the people using these products, they are probably simply inert and have no effect one way or the other.