females in traditional chinese martial arts

[Jian]

some women i've trained with have not been socialized at an earlier age to have a lot of tolerance for contact. my friend who leads classes in choy li fut says that females in his beginning class have a hard time sparring with men (esp the beginner men who hit hard) and tend to drop out easily. the ones that make it to advanced level do fine. being supportive while they become more accustomed to the nature of traditional martial arts training will help with retention.

as for the note about women being able to hit hard but not being able to be hit hard, i've seen that too (with a few exceptions). i think it's largely psychological. it would be of benefit for more women to develop that resiliency (and anyone for that matter, no matter what size).

[David Jamieson]

some women i've trained with have not been socialized at an earlier age to have a lot of tolerance for contact. my friend who leads classes in choy li fut says that females in his beginning class have a hard time sparring with men (esp the beginner men who hit hard) and tend to drop out easily. the ones that make it to advanced level do fine. being supportive while they become more accustomed to the nature of traditional martial arts training will help with retention.

mixed format is the problem.

women shouldn't be sparring with men.
adults should not be sparring with children.
adult learning is completely and utterly different from child learning.

when it gets mixed, you have these problems.

martial arts is specific. It is not always happy fun time and making it so dilutes and actually destroys the value.

[taai gihk yahn]

mixed format is the problem.

women shouldn't be sparring with men.

lol, tell that to Cyborg...

srsly, sum women I kno can hang w guys fine, but when skil and size are not in their favor, have a harder time of it than a guy wud (just IMPE);

what I think is more dangerous than women sparring men, is women playing soccer with them, which is fairly common in HS athletics these days..

[Jian]

i don't agree completely that women shouldn't spar with men. if the reason a female is having a hard time with contact is b/c its a 115 lb vs a 150 lb guy then that is a separate issue. and yes, there are 6 foot tall females in MMA that would beg to differ .

i don't think it's of benefit to coddle female martial artists when it comes to training.. i think it helps in the beginning for some women, b/c like i said before, many girls just aren't used to being rough in the school yard like the boys and then they grow up with less resilience for contact.

out on the street, the attacker doesn't care...

[sanjuro_ronin]

From a practical stand point it makes sense for women to spar with men, obviously.
I think that, to start, even paring is crucial, but, and this could be my kyokushin side talking, nothing teaches you more about yourself then fighting some guy that is twice your size.

[David Jamieson]

lol, tell that to Cyborg...

srsly, sum women I kno can hang w guys fine, but when skil and size are not in their favor, have a harder time of it than a guy wud (just IMPE);

what I think is more dangerous than women sparring men, is women playing soccer with them, which is fairly common in HS athletics these days..

some women can fight.

maybe "some" is generous. I prefer "few".
Few women can fight.
Few women can hang with a guy in a fight. Even an untrained guy.
Few women do this. Now news there and to try to prop up an illusion taht women are also fighting beasts like men? Nah. They are more rare than gay people and gay people are statistically quite rare. some say 10% of the pop, but stats indicate it's actually less than 5% I wouldn't know what the stats are on female fighters, but they are FEW.

Skill and size and strength and drive to beat the living crap out of someone doesn't have the same level of throb as it does within a man, particularly a young man.

It's a waste of time to have them spar together on the median. I personally don't do it and won't do it. women fight women, kids fight kids and men fight men and the better they all get at it the more you can narrow it into more and more egalitarian aspects that will help to continue to improve the skills in all until the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

a woman facing a man in sparring all the time will not likely succeed in the median sense.

That which doesn't kill you doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Sometimes it cripples you, or seriously effects your mind in such a way that you can't go on.

Bravado counts for nothing when you are up against a superior opponent contextually on every level.

[taai gihk yahn]

i don't agree completely that women shouldn't spar with men. if the reason a female is having a hard time with contact is b/c its a 115 lb vs a 150 lb guy then that is a separate issue. and yes, there are 6 foot tall females in MMA that would beg to differ .

i don't think it's of benefit to coddle female martial artists when it comes to training.. i think it helps in the beginning for some women, b/c like i said before, many girls just aren't used to being rough in the school yard like the boys and then they grow up with less resilience for contact.

out on the street, the attacker doesn't care...

agreed; what u may need is more of an acclimation process to counteract the socialization and biological differential (which of course may not apply in many cases); in other words, you need to increase the pressure at a more incremental rate, but ultimately, womean needs MUST be exposed to sparring men with a significant weight / size difference, because that's what they may encounter for r3alz one day, and they need to b as prepared for it as possible;

altho I remember one time in my old TKD school, there were these two black belts, one male, one female; the gal had come from a kyokushin school, and she was tiny; and when I say tiny, I mean like 5' -2" or something; so, she was sparring the guy BB, and he basically was toying w her w his kicks, keeping her out of range - his whole atitude was like "I don't take u seriously at all"; at one point, he whacked her good w a hook kick, which ****ed her off; now she was small, but tough, and she could move well; so on his next head level kick, she ducked in and under, and uppercutted him in the balls; fight over...

[Razaunida]

women should be in the NFL, but would get destroyed if they tried.


just sayin...no matter how much people might think it should be...men and women are not the same.


Now maybe the nerds at your dojo are equal in size and physical ablility to women. Both can play pretend equally, but if you want something more realistic, you need to turn up the heat and women generally can't handle that.


Either can nerds...so its probably best that they stick together.

[taai gihk yahn]

some women can fight.

maybe "some" is generous. I prefer "few".
Few women can fight.
Few women can hang with a guy in a fight. Even an untrained guy.
Few women do this. Now news there and to try to prop up an illusion taht women are also fighting beasts like men? Nah. They are more rare than gay people and gay people are statistically quite rare. some say 10% of the pop, but stats indicate it's actually less than 5% I wouldn't know what the stats are on female fighters, but they are FEW.

Skill and size and strength and drive to beat the living crap out of someone doesn't have the same level of throb as it does within a man, particularly a young man.

It's a waste of time to have them spar together on the median. I personally don't do it and won't do it. women fight women, kids fight kids and men fight men and the better they all get at it the more you can narrow it into more and more egalitarian aspects that will help to continue to improve the skills in all until the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

a woman facing a man in sparring all the time will not likely succeed in the median sense.

That which doesn't kill you doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Sometimes it cripples you, or seriously effects your mind in such a way that you can't go on.

Bravado counts for nothing when you are up against a superior opponent contextually on every level.

good points, I guess my bias is that in the world of MA, by the time most women get around to sparring seriously, the self selective aspect has been engaged, so it's typicaly those "few" of whom you speak that are there to begin with; so yes, i agree that to pair up some "barbie doll" type w a guy may not b prudent, but if u have a woman athlete who has played competative semi-contact sports like soccer, field hockey, etc., and she's motivated to learn to fight, then who is she going to learn from more sparring? another woman in the school who is not as skilled / motivated , or a guy who is? I mean, I guess it boils down to individual characteristics, as a teacher one has to weigh the pros and cons of each pairing...

[Jian]

thanks for posting, david, i appreciate your honest opinion.

this is not a competition for who is stronger male or female. i don't think what makes a martial artist great or ability to give honor to our ancestors by carrying on the lineage is all about who would win in an all out brawl based on who has more testosterone, power and aggression. if that were the case then, at least on just sparring (only one aspect of martial arts), you might as well eliminate all the weight classes and let the heavyweights rule. i give more credence to technique.

my main point in the beginning is learn how folks on the forum view females' role in traditional chinese martial arts

i agree it boils down to individual characteristics. i know a rail thin guy in my martial arts class who would not last in the ring... does this mean he's no good? perhaps he can make the most of his physical body.

[taai gihk yahn]

my main point in the beginning is learn how folks on the forum view females' role in traditional chinese martial arts

from a "traditional" Chinese Martial Arts perspective, you should all be at home making babies...(the whole female equality thing comes from the Commies, sorry to say...)

[bawang]

i agree it boils down to individual characteristics. i know a rail thin guy in my martial arts class who would not last in the ring... does this mean he's no good?

he is no good.

[Jian]

nice one. but i have found that what constitutes as "tradition" is ever changing and fortunately women can choose to make babies and/or participate in martial arts

[Razaunida]

yes technique is good and ideal, but ultimately it comes down to this....Are you strong enough to keep from being defeated and seeing your women dragged off and dishonored only to late commit suicide?

Its a yes or no question.


Vandame beat up Tiger Li, but Tiger Li had already known that his girlfriend was a good lay. Not his gf has Tiger Li's baby.

Vandame lost.

[bawang]

thats where you are wrong. tradition is inflexible as diamond, and tradition never changes.

in modern times you can do whatever you want, but dont try to force your beliefs unto tradition.