Training/fighting in a rule set

[ShaolinDan]

Actually, while you bring out a valid point, it only goes as far has highly SPECIALISED rule sets and doesn't apply to MMA or:

If you are a striker it doesn't apply to MT / KB or any striking systems that is full contact.
If you are a grappler it doesn't apply to submission grappling.

The simple fact is that the once you state that you are "too deadly" for sport fighting or that you train for the "real fighting", you then should be able to function in a limited and controlled environment.
Notice I didn't say WIN, but you should at least "hold your own".

"A CMA guy should be able to handle himself in an MMA rule set, but he's not going to be competitive with the guys who train specifically for that rule set."

WHOA!! look at that from my original post... how'd that get in there?! But where in my post did I state "I'm too deadly for sport?"

So, what's the discussion?

[faxiapreta]

Well having read Sun Tzu, and still referencing him regularly, you don't want to be on a level playing field. You want to be superior in every way.

contests like sports combat have as much value as a movie or going out to a car race.

No one can say they will be effective in a 50/50 environment.

But the USA can expect to walk into Libya and put it under the gun inside of a short period of time.

Superiority negates the conditions where competition is seen as a way.

In martial arts competition produces a false sense of what the real meaning of martial arts is. That is to say to defeat your opponent in as quick a manner as possible.

If my opponent is stronger and greater than I, then I must resort to treachery and deception. Where he wants to hit me with his fist, I will stab at his gut and legs with a knife.

competition? It's martial, not contest for who get's a belt.

I want the guy to be down and out. I may not want to kill him, But I'm not going to compete with him, I will seek out the superior way to defeat his ass and use it pronto.

what's not to get?

This is exactly what happens when someone who has never competed tries to pontificate about competition.

Competition is all about superiority. The main strategy for most competitors is to develop superiority by playing to their own strengths, minimizing their own weaknesses, exploiting their opponents' weaknesses, and avoiding their opponents' strengths.

Anyone who has competed knows that the idea is to overpower the opponent with your superiority as fast as possible.

[Lucas]

as we can see, even from sanshou champions, transfering to mma takes some time and effort to do so successfully. adjusting to the rules can take time.

[David Jamieson]

"A CMA guy should be able to handle himself in an MMA rule set, but he's not going to be competitive with the guys who train specifically for that rule set."

WHOA!! look at that from my original post... how'd that get in there?! But where in my post did I state "I'm too deadly for sport?"

So, what's the discussion?

That "im too deadly for sport" thing is another strawman brought to you by the same people who think your kung fu is BS.

they are of course wrong.

Most mma guys can't hold their own in fencing. They totally suck at it and look like fools flailing around with the epee.

Most mma guys can't deal with a forms competition. Mostly because they haven't invested any time into learning them and certainly don't practice them.

Most mma guys haven't got a clue of how to properly beat someone with a rattan staff. they don't know how to employ an entering strategy against one either and wind up all covered in welts when they try.

See how stupid it looks when you reverse the context?

yeah, the fluffy little cloud says "yeah".

[faxiapreta]

as we can see, even from sanshou champions, transfering to mma takes some time and effort to do so successfully. adjusting to the rules can take time.

It's not about adjusting the rules, it's about developing the skills needed to compete with the increased skills of the opponents who compete under that rule set.

[David Jamieson]

^ I wonder if moron above has bumped hip to the fact he's on my ignore list. lol

Hiya goofball, I can't read your vitriol, so best shove it up your ass instead.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well having read Sun Tzu, and still referencing him regularly, you don't want to be on a level playing field. You want to be superior in every way.

contests like sports combat have as much value as a movie or going out to a car race.

No one can say they will be effective in a 50/50 environment.

But the USA can expect to walk into Libya and put it under the gun inside of a short period of time.

Superiority negates the conditions where competition is seen as a way.

In martial arts competition produces a false sense of what the real meaning of martial arts is. That is to say to defeat your opponent in as quick a manner as possible.

If my opponent is stronger and greater than I, then I must resort to treachery and deception. Where he wants to hit me with his fist, I will stab at his gut and legs with a knife.

competition? It's martial, not contest for who get's a belt.

I want the guy to be down and out. I may not want to kill him, But I'm not going to compete with him, I will seek out the superior way to defeat his ass and use it pronto.

what's not to get?

What's not to get?
That the opponent will also:
resort to treachery and deception. Where he wants to hit me with his fist, I will stab at his gut and legs with a knife.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"A CMA guy should be able to handle himself in an MMA rule set, but he's not going to be competitive with the guys who train specifically for that rule set."

WHOA!! look at that from my original post... how'd that get in there?! But where in my post did I state "I'm too deadly for sport?"

So, what's the discussion?

YOU brought it up, YOU tell US.

[faxiapreta]

That "im too deadly for sport" thing is another strawman brought to you by the same people who think your kung fu is BS.

they are of course wrong.

Most mma guys can't hold their own in fencing. They totally suck at it and look like fools flailing around with the epee.

Most mma guys can't deal with a forms competition. Mostly because they haven't invested any time into learning them and certainly don't practice them.

Most mma guys haven't got a clue of how to properly beat someone with a rattan staff. they don't know how to employ an entering strategy against one either and wind up all covered in welts when they try.

See how stupid it looks when you reverse the context?

A fencer who could not fence full out would never be as good as one who simply did fencing in the air or with a compliant partner.

A forms competitor who didn't actually go through the forms would never be able to compete with a forms competitor who practiced the forms as they would be performed in a competitive setting.

The person who only does drills and forms with the staff will never be as good as the person who does full contact training with the staff.

The argument stands in any activity from chess to running to swimming to fighting.

[SimonM]

Familliarity with rules in a competition certainly make a difference. Back when I was fighting I got talked into doing a strongman competition, only the unscrupulous person who convinced me to do it misled me, said it was an NHB event (he knew I was a grappler). I trained a lot of grappling, a bit of boxing and kicking, expecing that sort of event and, yeah, I got moked.

But that's not the argument that's being set up. The argument is one of validity.

We can approach validity from two perspectives - the first is the question of the wholistic validity of an art. That gets complicated because people approach art for a multitude of reasons and an artist who has no interest in fighting needs not learn how to fight to have validity.

For wholistic validity what really matters is self-truth, self-honesty and enough introspection to understand the reasons why a person has come to an art.

The second perspective is one of martial validity. This is a small sub-set of validity within the art but, as many people who come to martial arts are concerned with it, martial validity sometimes eclipses wholistic validity.

To be martially valid an art must be tested. "Sportive Combat" is one way to test this validity. It's not the only way but it is a good way.

The biggest trap we all fall into on occasion is to conflate wholistic validity with martial validity. When a TCMAist does this it often becomes a matter of defending martial validity because it is seen as necessary for the art to be valid wholistically.

When an anti-TCMAist does this it often becomes a matter of maligning wholistic validity because of a perceived lack of martial validity.

And both of these perspectives make me want to chew nails. If martial validity matters to you, it doesn't matter what style of martial art you do, find some partners and spar!

Honestly the Boffer LARPers may be better fighters than some weapon users who never develop tools to practice their weapons in a resistive environment.

If martial validity doesn't matter to you follow your passion. If anybody attacks you for being in an art for general health benefits, for spiritual practice, for aesthetics or out of a sense of cultural appreciation I'd be one of the first to jump to your defense! But don't sink to the level of those who would conflate your experience, the reasons you do your art, with their own.

[David Jamieson]

I have a boxing record, I wrestled through HS.

It just ain't the same/same.

Judo is fun to compete in.

Putting an argument up to try and force Kung Fu people to train like mma as if that will make any difference is just a whiney little mugs excuse to get away from teh fact that he doesn't belong in a kung fu forum if he wants to play mma.

you can get stuff from mma training for your fighting, but, you get it from kung fu too.

You don't have to compete, but you can.

These guys that hold one model over another are just stupid plain and simple.
They can't understand how is it possible that there are many paths and that there is lot about martial arts that is interesting, not just ring fighting.

It's just the dumbest argument to be put forth. It's highly assumptive for one thing.

If you are going to enter into a venue, the YOU TRAIN TO THAT VENUE.

don't ask a hobby guy who wants to learn butterfly knives to fall in line with mma training, That is brain dead and simply a stupid line of reasoning.

If someone says: I wanna fight like Randy Couture, then it is good advice to send that person to go train in such a manner that he can do that. Why should he learn a form? Why should he learn Lion dance? Why should he learn a cultural style? Why should he learn how to handle a sword? It doesn't make sense.

Same as it doesn't make sense to try to proclaim that mma is the only way for martial arts. It's not, it won't be.

mma is it's own thing. you can do it, or not. It's not better or worse than kung fu practice, it is what it is.

I guess some people are TOO STUPID to understand that and their little tiny pea sized over concussed cell mass they call a brain gets overloaded at the very idea of people and pursuits being different, not to mention the literally hundreds of ways to skin a cat.

lol

[faxiapreta]

I have a boxing record, I wrestled through HS.

It just ain't the same/same.

Judo is fun to compete in.

Putting an argument up to try and force Kung Fu people to train like mma as if that will make any difference is just a whiney little mugs excuse to get away from teh fact that he doesn't belong in a kung fu forum if he wants to play mma.

you can get stuff from mma training for your fighting, but, you get it from kung fu too.

You don't have to compete, but you can.

These guys that hold one model over another are just stupid plain and simple.
They can't understand how is it possible that there are many paths and that there is lot about martial arts that is interesting, not just ring fighting.

It's just the dumbest argument to be put forth. It's highly assumptive for one thing.

If you are going to enter into a venue, the YOU TRAIN TO THAT VENUE.

don't ask a hobby guy who wants to learn butterfly knives to fall in line with mma training, That is brain dead and simply a stupid line of reasoning.

If someone says: I wanna fight like Randy Couture, then it is good advice to send that person to go train in such a manner that he can do that. Why should he learn a form? Why should he learn Lion dance? Why should he learn a cultural style? Why should he learn how to handle a sword? It doesn't make sense.

Same as it doesn't make sense to try to proclaim that mma is the only way for martial arts. It's not, it won't be.

mma is it's own thing. you can do it, or not. It's not better or worse than kung fu practice, it is what it is.

I guess some people are TOO STUPID to understand that and their little tiny pea sized over concussed cell mass they call a brain gets overloaded at the very idea of people and pursuits being different, not to mention the literally hundreds of ways to skin a cat.

lol

Actually, the reality is that the people with the pea brains are the ones who feel so threatened by the MMA model that they fail to recognize that the MMA model proponents (also known as the MMA trolls by those who are so insecure and feel threatened) make no arguments with the CMA crowd who wants to do lion dances and jump around like bugs.

Most of the time it is the insecure CMA crowd who bring up the whole comparison to MMA. Often they claim to have boxing, wrestling, or BJJ backgrounds when it is abundantly clear they do not.

What the insecure CMA crowd refuses/pretends not to recognize is that the pro-MMA crowd simply wants evidence when the insecure CMA crowd makes claims as to their methods affecting fighting ability.

I think most of the MMA supporters will happily say, "Dance around and pretend to fight as much as you want," but we will ask for evidence when the claims of that dancing turns to claims of being better than or as good as "just a sport with rules."

[SimonM]

Notwithstanding that I think a lot of people here question your right to attack their history. Pretty much everybody here has at least some sort of a background in the martial arts.

You've all but indicated that you are a spectator only. I think some of the hostility that you have felt comes from the fact that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Dragonzbane76]

train how you wanna train, what ever that venue be. Who cares what some people on the net think. State it and leave it. This fuking horse is dead.

[David Jamieson]

train how you wanna train, what ever that venue be. Who cares what some people on the net think. State it and leave it. This fuking horse is dead.

the fact you think this horse is dead is...wait.. you're right.