Kwan Sau

[ShortBridge]

Kwan sau has puzzled me for some time. It's a name we have for a combination of hands that already have names and I felt like I must be missing something. Maybe a year ago I connected with kwan sau as a a "tying/untying hand from within a bridged position. Recently I started thinking about the elbows in the opening of biu gee as an expression of kwan sau as well.

At the moment I'm contemplating 2 different expressions of kwan sau, one from chum kiu and one from biu gee, the difference being "rolling" vs some emphasis on an elbow strike. I'm interested in feedback and reaction from some of you more senior to me in that train of thought.

No trolls please. If you're not into wing chun, that's cool, please walk away from this thread and let us have our discussion.

[YouKnowWho]

There was a tournament in HK (1965 - 1971 ?) that a WC guy had a match against a CLF guy. The CLF guy threw a right hook punch, the WC guy used his left Tan Shou to block it. The right hook punch knocked through the left Tan Shou, and still hit the WC guy's head. That evening the WC guy went back to Yip Man. Yip Man told him that he should use his right Tan Shou to block the left side hook punch by adding counter-clockwise (top view) body rotation into it. In other words, that WC student should use his whole body structure and not just the arm.

The Kwan Sau (high Tan Shou and low Bong Shou) is very strong defence. It can be used to catch your opponent's roundhouse kick. Since you won't know where your opponent's roundhouse kick will hit, you use your high Tan Shou to block high roundhouse kick and use your low Bong Shou to block low roundhouse kick. No matter which arm that contack your opponent's kick, your low Bong Shou will function as a trap and hook under your opponent's kicking leg. You then fold your low arm and upper arm so your opponent's kick leg is not going anywhere.

I will use my Kwan Sau exactly the opposite direction as the following clip. It's just one of the Kwan Sau applications. Not sure other WC experts here will agree with me on this or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXXx01FDJIg

[Graham H]

No I don't!!!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

No I don't!!!

GH

He asked for an expert dude

That's why I will shy away from this thread...

[trubblman]

I am not an expert by any means but a kwan sau is 1 possible defense vs a roundhouse kick. It's the first defense I learned when I started off with traditional wing chun.

[k gledhill]

Lets break it down ...Kwan is what ? a tan and a bong done together, right. Why would we do this in a drill or real fight ?

1) we re scared and need to block bad guys evil arm with not one arm , tan , but 2 ! tan and a bong. ( like, country & western ) one block isnt good enough we need 2 ...one arrm isnt working alone, what does that tell you? maybe its not a block...? MAybe we should be doing something else, tactically..?

2) we are in a drill with a consenting partner and they are using two foks in a desperate double arm attack on us this alone reeks of wrong thinking. We dont fight with 2 equally extended arms while in a jgkym stance , we do 'drill' with 2 equally extended arms .

3) we have guys repeatedly kick us with shin-pads on and use the idea of ' stand and act like a heavy bag with a kwan sao block' this idea makes us stay exactly where the kick is most powerful so we can use our new 2arm block . take shin pads off and kick randomly with full force using shins. Drill will change shortly , mobility is your friend. Go in or stay out of the 'ring of death by shins'. Like there are sharks in the water between you on dry land or boat just a few feet away in the water...you choose to stand in the water with sharks circling you and turn to block their bite
stay on land or go for the boat asa you can. dont tread water waiting for shin bites .

4) we pose in dummy training and ask 'whats this for ?', tan & low bong...we dont ask why are we cycling through these positions ? Worse we think the preceeding action was also a double arm block, high and low gaun sao's , followe dby ...another double arm block ? Hmmthats a lot of double arm blocking. And then after two double arm blocks on the dummy , I side step and attack you with a tan and a midsection palm to your ribs ? wow , thats some deadly s h i t there....

5) too sad to carry on

6) okay, I will persevere for the benefit of the those who also did #3 and dont like it either ....kwan sao is not a double arm block its the unity of a strike , tan strike, and a bong (helping to create another strike) developing ging , displacing force, on the dummy arms. We are simply cycling through our repertoire of lin sil di da, angling, timing of body unity with arm actions, stance shifting, axis rotation..etc..attributes not applications.

7) On the dummy 1 section, if you use you right arm alone from the tan to gaun to tan to lowering sidepalm , you see the SLT in action with Ck . If you use your left you see a jum punch to a bong to a tan, gaun, jum , jut....
We are cycling each ARM to be the opposite of the other while attacking with one arm, the other is helping to make another attack possible...lin sil di dar . One arm is attacking, while the other is becoming a displacing/defensive action, then back to attacking action...tan is a strike, to bong [low on arm so we can slap it with bong forearm] then back to striking with tan ...hit, bong, hit, cypress hill song ? NO ! VT idea at work.


8) We dont turn to block, we turn to FACE our target/victim. If this is right then turning away from our opponent center to use two arms to block is breaking that idea. If it was an idea it might be in Bil Gee, but its not in any bil gee I have seen.
CK teaches us to use stepping to face and chase to attack not to redirect force like a game of feel me . Why do we develop ging displacing force on the dummy if we are training to feel by sticking and redirecting ? answer, we arent developing feeling sticking, we are developing lin sil di da .

9) We can use anything in our mind to create anything with our arms. BUT there are guiding concepts, like always make an attacking action. BG shows us to use 2 arms to recover back to NOT using two arms...

10) dont develop kwan sao, try looking for a way to make an attack in that action....

bil gee elbows is actually to break out of a grabbed wrist or trapped elbow preventing FACING...recovery of free hands that hit when free.
If you turn to block your putting yourself into a position BG is teaching me to get out of...see the conundrum ?

[YouKnowWho]

He asked for an expert dude

That's why I will shy away from this thread...

I'm just saying that there are WC guys in this forum that are more qualified to give proper WC opinions than me.

Another usage that I can see can be similiar to Bagua "double switching hands" that the moment your block your opponent's punch with your Tan Shou, your Bong Shou will take over the block and that will free your Tan Shou hand to strike. The only concern is that the Bong Shou may be too far away from the elbow of your Tan Shou. This will reduce your switching hands speed.

[trubblman]

BTW Gary Lam also gives excellent kwan sao applications in his chi sao videos.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm just saying that there are WC guys in this forum that are more qualified to give proper WC opinions than me.

Really? Who is qualified to share experience exactly?

Lets break it down ...Kwan is what ? a tan and a bong done together, right.

Clever stuff Kev Now can you write kwan in chinese please?? Then share exactly what the said bong and tan are doing in kwansau?

I say this because not everything has to be lien siu dai da and the way you explain it seems to only encompass that principle. Great breakdown and attempt, but what is kwansau for?? Lien siu dai da?? No.

FME Kwansau is only one of four key double-handed postures and if you can't explain exactly what one of them is for, well you see what I mean...

Nobody has sailed a boat before here no?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Jon_Ray_Brooks;1111441]

At the moment I'm contemplating 2 different expressions of kwan sau, one from chum kiu and one from biu gee, the difference being "rolling" vs some emphasis on an elbow strike. I'm interested in feedback and reaction from some of you more senior to me in that train of thought.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rolling and elbowing at close quarters are not mutually exclusive motions.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Really? Who is qualified to share experience exactly?



Clever stuff Kev Now can you write kwan in chinese please?? Then share exactly what the said bong and tan are doing in kwansau?

I say this because not everything has to be lien siu dai da and the way you explain it seems to only encompass that principle. Great breakdown and attempt, but what is kwansau for?? Lien siu dai da?? No.

FME Kwansau is only one of four key double-handed postures and if you can't explain exactly what one of them is for, well you see what I mean...

Nobody has sailed a boat before here no?

We should not see 'bong' in a fight, bong does not stay...a bong held in the in the air is a dead bong. Monty python sketch, this bongs dead, no its not, yes it is, not its not, I just saw it move ! .....

2 arms fighting ONE is not a skill....

Doing dummy training, tan and bong develop the arms to generate 2 different force vectors with ballistic force capable of displacing and clearing striking paths.
This is done while still facing the position of the opponent using ging force.
Bong deflects sideways, while tan strikes forwards with elbow idea working.
IOW we DONT turn ourselves, we turn the opponent using techniques of VT.
Each arm is moving at high speeds with impact force being generated at close quarters in different directions with hips/body weight in short blasts of motion...add 180 lbs to your 'ging'

[LoneTiger108]

We should not see 'bong' in a fight, bong does not stay...a bong held in the in the air is a dead bong. Monty python sketch, this bongs dead, no its not, yes it is, not its not, I just saw it move ! .....

2 arms fighting ONE is not a skill....

I would say that whatever wins the fight is useful. Learning to use both singular, chained and double palm posturing is all good imho. In fact, these are all traits found in the forms.

And FWIW the 'bongsau never stays still' belongs to a kuit that describes interactive training, when actually no seed is still for any length of time because you're constantly turning/rolling/skicking through the transition of the seeds.

IOW we DONT turn ourselves, we turn the opponent using techniques of VT.

Again, this is a speciality of ginsan (square on) Wing Chun, and it is a very highly regarded skill, hence, why Ip Man taught this method in HK to fighters. Thing is, we do turn ourselves, especially in defense, and that's called chiuying (facing shadow) and you can do this with square on, slanted or side body platforms.

Just saying but there's 3 versions of kwansau right there!

[k gledhill]

Read my first post as an answer....

[WC1277]

Kwan Sau generally shouldn't be done by itself, otherwise you're chasing.

It's purpose is to regain facing if you get turned too far off the line. It's an excellent way to clear any obstructions as you reface the opponent due to the strength of the structure

[k gledhill]

Kwan Sau generally shouldn't be done by itself, otherwise you're chasing.

It's purpose is to regain facing if you get turned too far off the line. It's an excellent way to clear any obstructions as you reface the opponent due to the strength of the structure

this a classic example of, what ? Done by itself or your chasing, meaning ?


So to regain facing a strong structure, you just kwan sao it ? 2 arms better than one, eh ?

oh dear....