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Thread: Kwan Sau

  1. #46
    [QUOTE=WC1277;1111820]Good post Joy

    I didn't know it was held up there in Tempe. It must of been a nice school there on University!
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Thx. It was in an old set of shops on North side of University between McClintock and Price. It was closed later. Kan sifu brought his banners and hung them on a wall for pictures.

    joy

  2. #47
    Had to bite my lip on a rebuttal lets leave that stinking pile of bat guano where it sits in Aridzona way back then, lets move on together and try to stick to VT.

    NO ! there is no kwan sao in the opening of the forms, wrong Joy.

    heres another photo ! just finished chi-saoing with Yip Ching & Yip Chun
    Last edited by k gledhill; 02-11-2013 at 05:15 PM.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Had to bite my lip on a rebuttal lets leave that stinking pile of bat guano where it sits in Aridzona way back then, lets move on together and try to stick to VT.

    NO ! there is no kwan sao in the opening of the forms, wrong Joy.

    heres another photo ! just finished chi-saoing with Yip Ching & Yip Chun
    There is in the opening in our system. We roll the X instead of just lifting it. Once again you see end movements and not the in between where the actual bread and butter is in most things.

    I dare to ask you, in clear terms, once and for all, what is kwan sau then kevin?

    On a side note, I find it funny that the only recognition you've ever had in the WC world is association with the people you dismiss exemplified by the pictures you post....

  4. #49
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    I agree with both WC1277 and Joy. In the HKM system, in the opening of the SLT, we do a roll to move from the lower X to the upper X position instead of just lifting it. This is Foundational training for the execution of the Kwun Sao technique.
    The more you know, the more you find you don't know...

  5. #50
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    I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their perspectives on my original question. I've been following most of the discussion with interest and I've learned a few things or at least got some new ideas to explore in training.

    My observations:

    First the youtube clip of Alan Lee that someone posted in, I think the first response, is a good example of one of the expressions I was mentioning. I have not met Sifu Lee, but if I'm not mistaken, he is in the bronx and was a NY student of Duncan Leung. I felt this type of kwan sao somewhat recently and until I did, I wasn't really convinced, but I do think that it comes from sparring and not chi sao. I'm playing with it now and we'll see if it's something that sticks with me, but I have no doubt that it can work for some people. It wouldn't have occurred to me on my own, though.

    I find it related to a concept that is expressed in White Crane called "breaking bridge". It doesn't seem to be as a major of a focus in wing chun, but I don't dismiss it as not belonging altogether either.

    I also get and respect the argument of not attacking limbs, but attacking center/structure/person. This is something that I really like about wing chun. How much and to the exclusion of what else is this central I think comes down to linage a bit. I don't mean that as either a good or bad remark, simply that I know some linages are more direct and some more shifty.

    I don't claim to have either deep or broad knowledge and I'm not trying to further that argument, but I do have some thoughts on the subject at large. We know at this point, in part thanks to our friend Robert Chu, that not all "pure, classical" wing chun relates to Yip Man. We also know that some of what have been calling "mainland wing chun" on these boards looks different than what we yip man descendants know as pure wing chun. We also know that among Yip Man's next generation sifus, there are differences in interpretation, expression and emphasis. I personally reject the idea that any one person or linage has the real/exclusive truth that we're looking for. Not to say that I think everyone's equal, there are schools that I personally give more credence than others. I know that a Moy Yat student and a Duncan Leung student (for example) will have some different perspectives and approaches and I think we've seen some of them in this discussion alone. I respect them both and their differences don't make me think that either of them is wrong. I'm training hard to find my own connections to good wing chun and welcome all of those perspectives. I'm also interested in some of the ones that don't get expressed here and for that matter my interest extends to some of the other southern short bridge systems, just because I think there's some shared DNA. It's unfortunate that we linage squabble as much as we do, but I accept that it's part and parcel to our community at this point.

    I need to think a little bit more about the kwan sao expressions from the jong. I had kind of forgotten about them. Certainly I'm finding two related (to Joy's point), but distinct ideas between what Alan Lee was suggesting and the concept of tying/untying. Both things that I'd like to spend a lot of time training in different ways to see where I settle.

    For me, I had not embraced kwan sao until fairly recently. I just didn't really get it. I needed to feel a few really good people's kwan saos, which I have this year, which has what started my interest. Thanks again for responding and contributing.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Ray_Brooks View Post
    First the youtube clip of Alan Lee that someone posted in, I think the first response, is a good example of one of the expressions I was mentioning. I have not met Sifu Lee, but if I'm not mistaken, he is in the bronx and was a NY student of Duncan Leung. I felt this type of kwan sao somewhat recently and until I did, I wasn't really convinced, but I do think that it comes from sparring and not chi sao. I'm playing with it now and we'll see if it's something that sticks with me, but I have no doubt that it can work for some people. It wouldn't have occurred to me on my own, though.
    If you compare the following 2 clips, you can see that Alan Lee tried to block the roundhouse kick with his right arm Bong Shou, and Cung Le tried to block and catch the roundhouse kick with his left arm. Please try both ways and let us know which way that you like it better.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXXx01FDJIg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdTCXhanxzk

  7. #52
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    I've done both and to be honest, I'm not crazy about either one. I'm spending time with the Alan Lee method (don't think that's what it's supposed to be called), but I'm not sure if I'll get there with it, at least not as plan A.

    But to get back on track, we were talking about kwan sao and not dealing with roundhouse kicks.

  8. #53
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    In our SLT we have a Low and High Ying Bong Sau that rolls not lifts an opponents energy. This expresses the element of Fa or "neutralizing" energy.

    Not so different from what Joy and other's here have expressed.

    As for Kwan Sau, it appears in many different forms throughout our system.

    In regards to this thread, the most appropriate description of Kwan Sau would be for "changing of the line" or "restoring the line" to gain leverage and proper facing/range.

    In this sense, it is primarily a bridging structure (Kiu Sau) that is used as a hand-off tool from one line of facing to another. And also falls into the Fa (neutralizing energy) category.


    Nice discussion (Sans the PB Kool-aided dogma of course)

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntc View Post
    I agree with both WC1277 and Joy. In the HKM system, in the opening of the SLT, we do a roll to move from the lower X to the upper X position instead of just lifting it. This is Foundational training for the execution of the Kwun Sao technique.
    I find this very inetersting, as I too do a 'similar' push/pull with the opening X arms of the forms. We do not call this Kwansau though, it's Gaansau or 'cultivating hand' and is an extension/revolution of the original HK IP Man 'linear' version. From my understanding, this was how that set was taught in the mainland too but as long as it makes sense to yourself, all is good

    And if some want to score kudos by posting pictures of themselves with the hieracrchy of Wing Chun, then that's okay too! We could probably all do that...



    That's me with my Simo, Sihing and Sije. Meeting Ip Ching and Ip Chun in Foshan was 'an experience' but has no bearing at all on who or what I represent today. They were very pleasant to us though!
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 07-06-2011 at 04:16 AM.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  10. #55
    Ha! Yeah I know lets stick a kwan sau or a gaan sau in even before we've learnt about the ving tsun punch (tan and fook) or anything else because thats what's SLT is for.....complicated crossing actions right at the beginning!

    GH

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Ha! Yeah I know lets stick a kwan sau or a gaan sau in even before we've learnt about the ving tsun punch (tan and fook) or anything else because thats what's SLT is for.....complicated crossing actions right at the beginning!

    GH
    Sorry to point out the obvious G! But this IS a motion and method that is taught BEFORE punching from where I come from because it is in that order. Please don't tell me your fistwork is before your cross arms in SLT? because that would explain a lot...
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Sorry to point out the obvious G! But this IS a motion and method that is taught BEFORE punching from where I come from because it is in that order. Please don't tell me your fistwork is before your cross arms in SLT? because that would explain a lot...
    Ha! You may have misunderstood my post mate!!! LOL

    Of course our crossing action is before the punch but its not kwan sau or gaan sau!!

    ........because that would explain a lot?????? Funny!!!

    GH

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntc View Post
    I agree with both WC1277 and Joy. In the HKM system, in the opening of the SLT, we do a roll to move from the lower X to the upper X position instead of just lifting it. This is Foundational training for the execution of the Kwun Sao technique.
    Although I come from a different branch of Yip Man's VT, I have to agree completely. My old sifu, Leung Ting, also performed the opening movements of SNT and Chum Kiu, that is to say the crossed gaun-sau and crossed tan-sau, with an inside roll, and he specifically noted that this was training for the kwun-sau movement, even though it has a different appearance. Now I am associated with a different group, but we still view these movements this way.
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  14. #59
    Although I come from a different branch of Yip Man's VT, I have to agree completely. My old sifu, Leung Ting, also performed the opening movements of SNT and Chum Kiu, that is to say the crossed gaun-sau and crossed tan-sau, with an inside roll, and he specifically noted that this was training for the kwun-sau movement, even though it has a different appearance. Now I am associated with a different group, but we still view these movements this way.
    So why introduce an action like Kwan Sau right at the start of the system before even the basic punch has been looked at???? So to justfy this BS you say that it has a different appearance?????

    Why do you train for Kwan Sau at the start of SLT and CK. What makes Kwan Sau so special???? The student hasnt even been introduced to one handed actions nevermind two at the start of SLT.

    Ving Tsun is a logical system. Your idea is not!!!

    I'm looking forward to the reasons why you generic) think that!!

    GH
    Last edited by Graham H; 07-06-2011 at 10:11 AM.

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    So why introduce an action like Kwan Sau right at the start of the system before even the basic punch has been looked at???? So to justfy this BS you say that it has a different appearance?????

    Why do you train for Kwan Sau at the start of SLT and CK. What makes Kwan Sau so special???? The student hasnt even been introduced to one handed actions nevermind two at the start of SLT.

    Ving Tsun is a logical system. Your idea is not!!!

    I'm looking forward to the reasons why you generic) think that!!

    GH
    Because there's two main functions in WC. Rolling, whenever you're switching between arms, you're rolling in some way, and your triangle. Despite popular belief you're not just learning one arm hand movements in SLT. Your resting arm is just as important. If you don't have proper tension/forward intent, your extended arm will lack strength in body unity. Essentially, no triangle will be developed....

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