Duty of Care

[Goktimus Prime]

DISCLAIMER: This message is NOT intended as a criticism of Shaolin Wuchu Kung Fu as a style, NOR is it a criticism of the arm-knocking technique. This is a criticism of a school and its questionable teaching ethic.

Last Friday a friend and I visited a Shaolin Wuchu Kung Fu school in Sydney's North Rocks. During the course of the evening, the final activity was something known as arm knocking, which is similar to Pi Gua, but this version was far more extreme -- to the point where it was dangerous.

For the benefit of those who may not know, these sort of techniques fundamentally involve two partners slamming their arms (or legs) against each other in order to build up the arm or leg's tolerance to a hit -- in otherwords, to build endurance and resistance. Now, I have nothing against this - in fact, I support it. There's no use in learning how to fight if you're going to be overwhelmed by pain when you get hit -- such exercises are designed to give you that sort of endurance that would allow you to absorb a hit and fight on without being overwhelmed by pain.

However, what went wrong last Friday was that the arm knocking was far too extreme. I'll admit that I'm not the most built nor athletic fellow in the world -- certainly not someone with a rugby player sort of build. But the fact is that the instructor/seniors of the class should be able to judge/evaluate what your level is, and train with you according to that.

Going to slow and easy may be boring for someone who's done endurance work before (not necessarily martial arts, footy players are usually rather durable people, since they get tackled on the field all the time) and so it makes the lesson more interesting if you go up a few "notches" to accompany the student's physical level.

However, the LIMIT of that student needs to be respected. Learning/teaching needs to be a gradual process.

Here's a few analogies to illustrate my point:

1. Say you're learning to high jump. It would be rather unreasonable to ask a student, on his/her first lesson, to jump over a 3m bar. Usually you learn to jump over, say a 1m bar, then 1.5m, then 2.5m and gradually working your way up to 3m or more. It's a _gradual_ process.

2. Medical students aren't allowed to do internships in hospitals until at least second year, and even then, it will be many more years until they are allowed to operate on a patient. You don't walk up to a first year med student, give him/her a scalpel and say, "go remove that blood clot from that patient's brain."

3. Teaching children to read is also a gradual process. In the English language, one is first taught the Roman Alphabet. Then you're taught how to string words and syllables together. Then how to form words into sentences, then compound sentences. Then paragraphs. Then a page. Eventually, you can read a small book, then a bigger book... you do NOT give a kindergartener a copy of War and Peace and say, "go nuts, kid."

4. Weight lifting: when working out at the gym for the very first time, your instructor would have to be a lunatic to get you working on a 90kg barbell. You usually start with light hand weights - maybe as small as 1-3kg, then work your way up from there.

And likewise, you simply do NOT go full ball on a newbie in your martial arts class -- NOT without some sort of basic evaluation at first. The first stage of this would be visual evaluation. You look at the person and ask yourself -- does this person look durable enough to absorb arm swings at maximum velocity?

And if a person says, "I've done Kung Fu before," still doesn't mean that they're ultra durable. They may have done something as simple as Tai Chi exercising in a park.

For instance, I'm a student teacher atm, and if a new kid were to come into my class and say, "I've studied some Japanese before," or "I've lived in Japan before," I'm not going to immediately upgrade them to HSC Background Speaker level. No. What would be the first thing I should do? That's right -- evaluate the student.

When I train martial arts with friends, I don't immediately go full force on them. I start of slowly and easily at first -- this helps me to gauge their level of fitness, strength and dexterity. Based on this initial evaluation, I can then either go "up" or "down" a notch, depending on how much my partner can handle.

This was NOT done at the place I went to last Friday. Sure, I told them that I'd done Northern Mantis before, but they did NOT do ANY evaluation to see how good or bad I am at my own art! I'll be the first to admit that I'm no Shaolin Monk when it comes to Kung Fu. And to presume that I was, is rather foolish.

Now, here's where legal complications step in. As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), all martial arts instructors must abide by the sports coaching regulations of the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport) - which also specifies, under safety regulations, what an instructor can and cannot do to students.

A teacher of ANYTHING (sports, martial arts, Japanese, maths, geography, economics etc) has duty of care of his/her students whom they are teaching. While in their CLASS (and this is why martial arts training sessions are legally defined as "classes") the welfare of the students is a responsibility of the instructor(s).

Even if I sign an indemnity form (which, incidentally, I didn't last Friday), this does not waver my rights. NOBODY can legally waver his/her own rights (e.g.: you can not sell yourself to slavery, even if you and your potential master wanted to -- no person is able to waver their rights). They are NOT permitted to take a course of action that would sustain injury upon me.

Now, some of you may be thinking, "but you're doing a martial art, you'd have to be a fairy idiot not to expect some injury." This is true. If you do any form of physical training - be it sport or martial art, a reasonable level of injury can be expected. However, here's what happened last Friday -- we started doing the arm knocking, and I said, "Oww, this is painful, stop it!" in which one other student merely mocked me for "not being strong" (duh, excuse me for disliking extreme pain) and the seniors who were instructing me argued that this was beneficial for me. So here's some more legal factors:

* I'd already pointed out that the exercise was painful and that I wanted to stop.
* I was told that the exercise was beneficial and coerced to continue.

Some might say that *I* always had the option to just stop. But the fact is that a student tends to put some level of faith in the teacher.

I was there to learn. Therefore, I was willing to do what the instructor told me to do. However, the instructor has a responsibility (duty of care) to instruct me in a safe and proper manner as humanly possible.

When a student starts saying, "this hurts and I wanna stop," it's a bloody good sign that there's something wrong.

Another thing that they could have done to better evaluate if I could have performed the arm knocking at that level or not is practising the move in the air. Almost ALL martial arts I've participated in - Wing Chun, Aikido/Taijutsu, Karate etc. (even TKD!!), practice this. You get taught a move. You practice it a few times on your own, then you do it with a partner -- and even then, you tend to go easy the first few times, and then you begin to accelerate as you both become more adept at the move (but never faster/stronger than you can handle).

As a result of what seems like legal negligence (and just downright stupidity - what other purpose could the seniors have, other than pumping their egos, to go full ball at me? I can NOT learn something if you show me the result of what you want me to learn, without leading me through the stages of getting there! Just as a person can NOT learn how to perform maths, if s/he's not first taught how to count!) I know have internal muscle bruising - which isn't so bad. It's more of a nuisance if anything, because I can't really do anything /w my arms (it really hurts just to type all this!). Thank goodness I'm on holidays atm -- if this happened during a prac block, I'd be stuffed (kinda hard to write on a whiteboard when your arms are buggered). And it would be even worse if I was working full time atm, <u>especially</u> if I was a manual labourer, where my arms are my livelyhood. What excuse can the school offer to such people? They need to realise that this is the 21st Century -- people have jobs and lives outside of Kung Fu and would require the use of their limbs!

And even from an ultra hardcore martial artist perspective -- what's the use of learning a technique, if it leaves you unable to fight for a week or so? What if someone attacks you while you're on the way home from training? If someone attacked you while your arms are recovering, you would be at a significant disadvantage in the fight!!

Again, please note my disclaimer; this message is NOT a flame on Shaolin Wuchu KF, nor is it a criticism of the arm knocking technique. It's simply a criticism of the teaching ethic of the school I went to last Friday.

PS: My friend who came along seems to have suffered more damage, as he said that he heard something in his arm snap when they hit him. We are now waiting for some medical examination results to see just how extensive the damage is to his arms. This person has almost NO experience with martial arts or much sport activities. He came along to see what martial arts are like, and I'm sad to say that last Friday's experience has put him off Southern Kung Fu for quite some time.

PPS: Another newbie in the class was a TONGAN. Even *he* was complaining about the pain!

"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle (284-322 BC)

[Goktimus Prime]

Here's what's happened since I posted that last message.

First of all, my friend who went did receive far worse damage than myself. I was bruised. He received STRAINED LIGAMENTS, since he's never done any form of martial art before.

Secondly, I went back to that school and had a friendly chat with the head instructor and two of the seniors.

Here are their counterarguments:

1. Their teaching IS gradual. They pointed out the fact that beginners are taught basic postures within the first form. I don't know why they brought this up, because my main issue was with arm knocking, not with their formwork.

2. Arm knocking is NOT intended for beginners. I do NOT recall being told this. They argued that they did not specifically ask me to participate in arm knocking, but then again, they didn't tell me not to. Not only that, but when they saw me doing arm knocking, they didn't tell me to stop but stepped in and showed me what to do, telling me to slam my arms against my partner's as hard as I can. If arm knocking is not a beginner's move, then they should have either told me to sit it out, or if they felt that I could do it, then they should ensure that I knew how to do the moves properly and make me fully aware of the risks involved with it (which they didn't. I was told that this exercise would be beneficial). I told them that before they do such moves, they should gather the beginners and say, "look, what they're about to do is an advanced moves and you should not attempt it unless you feel that you can, and even then, please be aware of the following risks..."
I mean, a science teacher will not simply allow ANY student to conduct an advanced experiment -- certainly not without ensuring that the students doing the experiment knows what they are doing. Especially if it involves hazardous chemicals or bunsen burners.

3. In another attempt to deflect liability on me (uh huh), they said that I had been endangering other students by trying to incorporate other martial arts techniques into their drills. In Praying Mantis, we're always taught that if a move fails, to move on and do something to cover yourself or attack the enemy, rather than just standing there like a stunned mullet. BUT, if this is a problem with this school, then the instructor SHOULD have stepped in and said, "no, we do not want you to do this, please stick to the drill." But they didn't. I heard no complaint about my training moves until TODAY (a week later). If the instructors saw what happened, then they should have interrupted or even stopped the drill. This is part of their duty of care. If anything, this shows that THEY have been negligent in looking after the student that I'm sparring with. Unless I directly try to break his skull or something, my sparring partner's welfare is a responsibility of the teacher. I could easily break a person's knee just by accidentally falling on them. But the liability goes to the instructor (and usually can be easily absorbed by his insurance agent). It is the TEACHER's responsibility to ensure that students are not endangering each other. Unless my sparring partner tells me that I'm going too fast or applying too much pressure, *I* don't know how far to go. I'm obviously not going to spar in slow motion, because people just don't fight that way -- but if the person I'm sparring with is relatively slow due to inexperience/lack of sufficient training, then I'll be willing to slow down for them. It is the <u>teacher's</u> responsibility to make sure that students are training properly, NOT the student's. Another difference between what I did to my sparring partner in that drill and what happened to me in arm knocking is that I specifically told them that it WAS hurting me. They paid no notice and told me to continue. Again, they were just trying to deflect responsibility away from themselves.

4. They pointed out that I had not read/signed their indemnity form. Which is true, at the time, I really couldn't be bothered. But if this form contains conditions that are vitally important (e.g.: please be aware that we are going to knock you about in this school), then they should INSIST that I read the conditions of their school. And if I continued to refuse, then they should simply refuse to teach me! They are fully within their rights to say, "look, we won't let you participate in this class until you have read the conditions of joining." At very least, they could have even verbally explained to me the conditions/risks of joining the class or participating in a certain drill.

5. They tried the presumed knowledged argument (oh, the conversation was so predictable). They said that if I were to do jogging, that I would be endangering myself to certain leg injuries. And since Shaolin Wuchu is a contact martial art, that I should be aware of the risks. As I explained before, this is NOT true. Unlike jogging, tennis, cricket, rugby league or even more well known martial arts like karate and taekwondo, Shaolin Wuchu KF is NOT part of general public perception. When you ask any layman what they think of martial arts, they'll probably think of Bruce Lee or even Jackie Chan movies, which we all know is NOTHING like real Kung Fu!! Even if they presumed that I knew something about Kung Fu, KF is very diverse! I could have done something as simple as taichi in the park. Most of my experience of Kung Fu has been Northern styles - praying mantis, taijiquan, changquan and bazhua. I'm *not* used to seeing their sort of Southern bashing about. Shaolin Wuchu is unique and special, and thus can NOT be classified as presumed general public knowledge.

6. They tried to argue that they're adhering to traditional Shaolin techniques. First of all, their techniques are not only dangerous, but illegal. These ancient techniques were developed in another country in a feudal time period! People had shorter life expectancies and most Shaolin Monks had no life outside the monastery (thus they didn't have to worry about going to work the next day with sore arms). However, even according to Shaolin legends, the Monks not only beat the crap out of each other, but they also looked after one another. The Monks healed and fed each other. Even then, here's something I'm unsure about. How can Wuchu be shaolin and fujian at the same time? Are these not completely DIFFERENT places of China? (perhaps I'm not interpreting something correctly here)

7. The main instructor said that after the class I didn't talk to him and complain about the injury. First of all, I did not feel/notice the injury until the next day. This happens with a lot of muscular injuries, including dislocated jaws (a friend of mine once said that he got his jaw dislocated in training, but he didn't feel it till the next morning) and even whiplash. Secondly, if he was offering traditional Chinese massage/herbal medicines (and I admit, this is merely speculation), then what if I'm the kind of person who doesn't want to use non prescription medicine? Does he know what herbs to combine with any other medication I'm taking (I'm asthmatic, so I take salbutomol and beclomethasone on a daily basis)? What if I'm allergic to something? He also said that because I didn't report the injury to him on the same night, that any claim I make is really just my word against his. He says that I could have bruised by muscles (and I suppose my friend could have strained his ligaments simultaneously) sometime after the class. Which is technically possible, but I don't see why he's trying to dodge the issue. When he fills in his insurance details, he has to let his agent know if anyone from his class has been injured or not. Which HAS happened.

At the end of the rather extensive discussion, they refused to concede... rather, they just said, "we'll take note of what you've said," and while I'd like to believe that they will try to learn from this and prevent the risk of future injury to students, I somehow left with the impression that they really meant, "we'll just totally disregard what you."

Anyway, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they make any improvements in future classes to improve safety standards. I'd really rather NOT escalate this case -- I'm the kind of guy who'd rather NOT get people into trouble if I can, but if they continue to endanger student welfare, then I'm really morally obliged to do something. Again, let's hope that they do pull up their socks, then everyone will be happy. :)

[This message was edited by Goktimus Prime on 01-26-01 at 05:50 AM.]

[qeySuS]

Well i only made it halfway through your second post (you write so **** much dude :P) MY main concern was basicly this, Ok they say "you went into this on your own risk, and it will strengthen you so you cannot complain when it hurts you".

I beleave i'm being truthful when i say that this will in no way help you getting stronger hands. And placing a novice with a person that's new in class sounds stupid. Even tho you say you have some MA experience, that could mean anything. Lot of ppl overestimate their skills perhaps a few months of training and they come cocky into a new school bragging about their MA experience, and just as you said the teacher should evaluate who's who, and who can handle what practice.

But back to the training thingie :) By all i have learned/heard any conditioning of your body (iron skills i guess their called) including the forearm are NOT done by going full force, getting an injury, waiting for that to heal and then do it all over again. You should gradually apply force and go higher if you feel your upto it. This is not a process of being injured so many times that you dont care anymore, this is a process of gradually making the body numb/strong to hits. This is done by light hitting first and escelating into higher force later i beleave.

Free thinkers are dangerous.

I agree,

It defeats the purpose of learning an art of fighting when you're going to be injured for the rest of the week.

Goktimus is correct about the "duty of care" but one must bear in mind that some classes are conducted by instructors who have too much testosterone and too little brain.

Then there are classes that attract a certain crowd who feel that they have to endure pain to learn how to fight. I guess it's like the S&M equivalent in the context of sex.

The good thing of being in a relatively open society there is something for everyone. Just don't be afraid to say NO to the training if you feel that it is not suitable personally.

Ego Maximize!

[lungyuil]

I agree with Qeysus, i had to stop halfway to take a breathe. For a person with sore arms you sure can write.

Did they offer you Dit Da Joa before and after practicing the arm knocking because we never practice conditioning without the use of Dit Da Jow. You will always get bruises but that will at least reduce the bruising.

It seems their egos are only school bound, they pick on new comers to prove they are good.

When new students start training at our school, we ensure they use Dit Da and are conditioned gradually because it proves no point to not be able to cintinue training. :)

[Goktimus Prime]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Did they offer you Dit Da Joa before and after practicing the arm knocking because we never practice conditioning without the use of Dit Da Jow. [/quote]

Huh? What's that called in standard Chinese (Mandarin) or Japanese? Or better yet, just explain what it is in English.

When I usually do Pigua conditioning, we usually rub/roll each others arms to massage them. At that school, one guy offered a kind of massage by grinding his forearm against mine. It hurt like hell!!

Anyway, it should never have come to that in the first place.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You will always get bruises[/quote]

Not with proper training. If you're always getting bruised in training, then something is wrong.

Anyway, I've heard news that this school has changed its ways and they've become more cautious and responsible about safety, which is good to hear.

"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle (284-322 BC)

[lungyuil]

Dit Da is medicine used for conditioning among other things (different types). Helps the Chi & bones.

I have never seen anyone not get bruised while practicing conditioning drills.
What do you consider proper training, do you expect them to go extemely soft. No-one wil do that.
If you condition with a harder person, you will get bruised or sore no matter what.

Lungyuil,

I very much doubt that a rub on medicine can stengthen the bone. The lotion simply cannot penetrate that far. I wounld seriously question the legitimacy of any school that puts forward this claim.

Sure if you want to make your bones stonger do take the occasional calcium tablet or if you prefer a more "natural" alternative, milk is good and so are cheeses. The Brie variety is rather delicious.

But seriously, you shouldn't get bruises all the time. If you do, it is quite possible that the training is unsafe.

Ego Maximize!

[prana]

I have been using Tit-da-Jao and has been a tradition in my training for centuries. So have many millions of ancient monks since the days of Gautama. Even the making of the Jao is almost a lost art ! If you do not understand the strength of the Jao, you are not in a position to understand the bone hardening techniques of Kung Fu !

By the way, there are primarily two schools of Shao Lin, one appearing in Northern China (Northern style) and the other in Fu-Jien
(Southern Style). The school was burnt down due to their strength and integrity to uphold stance against the Communist governments requests... and have subsequently been re-erected. The grand masters of this school of Martial Arts have gathered from all over the world to re-kindle the lost arts that have fruited from the temple.

Through my years of training and having started training at 6 years of age, I have never had a single day without bruises.

I have had better days than to come to a site like this to find ignorance to the entier tradition of martial arts. The monks of Shao-Lin did not become the legendary beings that they were by whinning about the pain of training.

Each and every monk wakes up early hours of dawn and meditate under the close guidance of their Lord Buddha and Sifu. They are utterly abused beyond our imagination and without the freedom to even know the benefits they are to be empowered, the secrets and skiils they were to be blessed with. Training would be as simple as sweeping the temple floors, eating next to no food and bitten with sticks and fist to reveal the red energies that abide in your Dan-Tien.

Pain is but a state of mind unless you are injured but you are not (unless you type with your toes).

Either you train or you don't. It seems to me that most of you have no knowledge of the true traditions of Martial Arts. I can't believe someone who calls themselves Martial Artist are so ignorant to the true risings of the art itself.

[joedoe]

I would have to say your reply is a bit harsh - we aren't Shaolin monks and can't be expected to train like them.

However, I agree in principle with what you say. If you are going to train in a traditional martial art, you should expect injuries. I have trained for many years and I rarely come away from a training session without bruises. Quite often, it is the new students who cause the bruises too!

I disagree that arm knocking is useless. We practice a form of arm knocking and I notice people getting harder arms as they progress in skill. Dit da does work - whether it gets into the bone or not is irrelevant. It helps to reduce injury and as a result allows you to train more.

With respect to the original post though, an instructor can only ask you to perform an exercise. If you are hurt or choose not to carry out the exercise, you can opt out. You are a human being with free will. No one can FORCE you to do anything.

And besides, there are two people involved with arm knocking. If you don't want to hit hard, you don't have to. Even if they hit hard you aren't forced to. And if you don't like the training then leave the class.

The Shoalin monks do train hard, and they are full time monks i.e. they don't have other jobs to go to. But they also have to get up and train the next day and carry out chores. And yes, they are beaten if they fail to do so. I know. I have been to Shaolin and trained with the monks for a short time.

As far as your examples go, they are not quite valid. If you go to a boxing school, you get hit. If you play football, you get hit. No difference.

And BTW, I do not believe there is any requirement for a instructor to be qualified by the AIS. Kung fu is not a sport. It is also not a requirement of the insurance companies for instructors to be AIS qualified. In fact, most instructors aren't.

All I can say is, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[Fish of Fury]

goktimus, if you don't know what Dit Da is, and you don't know the history of kung fu (eg. that there is a shaolin temple in fujian province...did it never occur to you that southern shaolin may have come from the south?) what makes you think you're in any way fit to walk in off the street and judge the training methods of a kung fu style?
people like yourself with a victim mentality, who want to talk about the "legality" of a training technique, take no responsibility for their own actions and should consider a more gentle hobby.
couldn't you determine for yourself to what intensity you wish to participate in a basic drill? if the instructor asked you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
from what you have described it sounds as though you weren't attacked or bullied but just failed to cope with a basic exercise.
also, the rules of this forum ask that you do not slander an instructor or school.
kung fu is about many things, amongst them is building character.
it sounds as if you could certainly use one, but please don't come to my school.

Prana:

To put it quick clearly, the reason why the monks underwent such harsh training in the old days is because they were IGNORANT of modern scientific methods available today. But you do so (train like the ancient monks) out of STUPIDITY!

Fish of Death:

Like i said earlier, there are too many "masters" out there with much testorone and little brain. Then there are the insane ones who may have a diminished sense of responsibility.

Goktimus may have came across one of those psycho masters and his school of pain. I am very sorry for you that you have decided to shoot the messanger.

Ego Maximize!

[prana]

I am not here to defend the monks and my ancestors. In fact I know their responses to your post will be one of compassion towards your lacking in the cores. Martial Arts arised from the wisdom of Lord Buddha, who saw the conditions of monks sitting in meditation. He subsequently created the art to increase the physical health of these monks, who lived on very poor diets and lack of nutrition.

For one who supposedly trains in this art, you sure have no respect for the art itself. Monks are the fathers and Inventors of martial arts. I think you have just offended the entire Martial Artists community with your dis-obedience.

And from me personally, having studied the fundamentals of sports training college levels, some and in fact most exercises are contra-indicated. However, chinese acrobats, martials artists and monks have brought the level of physical power beyond the capabilities of modern science. Perhaps it is modern science that lacks the understanding of human energy. Gautama (Lord Buddha) discovered the inner energies panna,and have passed on these traditions to the rest of the world. Only now have modern science found the capability of discovering these amazing energies that I see get posted simply as Qi.

Can modern science explain the ability to withstand the slice of a sword to bare skin, or the ability to blast holes through brick with bare fingers ? These are the essences of Qi.

I am a professional sportsman (NOT just in martial arts) and most of my exercises are considered contra-indicated. If you did your research, you will understand the principle of eccentric training and shock. And yet these techniques supposedly invented by the Germans have been around for centuries in our traditions.

So to you Ego Maximizer, it seems your traditions are really about 2 days old. I am being respectful to you having to lower myself to even post this message to you, and more, by teaching you these very core knowledge about martial arts. I hope you understand the essences of martial arts and training techniques before you start criticising the monks.

I am disppointed that this modern day of martial arts have been dishonoured by students such as those I see here. Back in the days where we trained, students are monitored closely, not only for physical ability but for mental intelligence and discipline before being enlightened to the secret techniques. But it seems you are certainly not worthy of it. Or perhaps I should rejoice, for the true art of martial arts have not been contaminated by your lack on the latter department. Though without Qi-Gong, I truly wonder about your former also...

U can criticise me all you want but DO NOT CRITICISE the founders of the very art. You have shown enough disrespect to our traditions with your comment. I suggest you return to your racquet and ball games and leave the art alone...

[joedoe]

Ego, you have an ego to match your name. You presume to know that modern methods are better, yet you participate in a forum related to ancient arts. I'm not saying that modern methods aren't beneficial to the martial arts, but neither can you discard the ancient ones. Just because they don't fit your paradigm of what is scientific doesn't mean that they haven't been refined.

So, to call the Shaolin monks ignorant for their training methods is not only disrespectful but showing of your own ignorance and closed-mindedness. How can you say that something that has been refined over hundreds of years is showing ignorance, while methods that are still being studied and formulated you consider to be better?

And I wouldn't go jumping into calling a master a psycho or stupid if you haven't met them and especially if you haven't heard any other side of a story.

I assume you are a martial artist also. So I also assume that you should understand that there is more than one way to do something. Maybe you should think twice about calling someone's training methods ignorant.

[Goktimus Prime]

I don't know enough about Tit-da-jao to comment on it. So I won't.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Through my years of training and having started training at 6 years of age, I have never had a single day without bruises.
[/quote]

This reminds me of those psycho instructors with brutal schools that Ego Maximus was talking about.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have had better days than to come to a site like this to find ignorance to the entier tradition of martial arts. The monks of Shao-Lin did not become the legendary beings that they were by whinning about the pain of training.

Each and every monk wakes up early hours of dawn and meditate under the close guidance of their Lord Buddha and Sifu. They are utterly abused beyond our imagination and without the freedom to even know the benefits they are to be empowered, the secrets and skiils they were to be blessed with. Training would be as simple as sweeping the temple floors, eating next to no food and bitten with sticks and fist to reveal the red energies that abide in your Dan-Tien.[/quote]

That's rather embellishing the facts with legends, don't you think? Yes, shaolin monks did train excessively hard, but considering this:

1. They didn't have lives outside of their temple. They devoted their entire lives to meditation, praying and their training. Unlike them, other people have to go to work or school the next day. I'm just lucky that I was injured during holidays, because there would've been NO way I could've written down lecture notes with the condition of my arms.

2. People didn't care about personal welfare back then. We know better now.

3. The monks also took time to heal themselves afterwards. They applied medicines, massages etc. Not many martial arts instructors are qualified to prescribe medicine. If he gave me some holistic medicine that gave me an allergic reaction or something, I could sue.

4. Let's face it, they lived in less civilised times. Martial arts training was more intense because villages/towns/clans were warring with each other a lot. We don't have that nowadays -- Kung Fu is something we now learn for self defense. And even at that, you cannot defend yourself as well as you normally can if your arms are bruised. Also, back then, there was no such thing as moral ethics or the Universal Declaration of Basic Human Rights.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Pain is but a state of mind unless you are injured but you are not (unless you type with your toes).[/quote]

That shows how ignorant you are of the human nervous system. How about I kick you in the testicles or hit you on the head with a hammer ten times, and you tell me that the pain is all just a state of mind?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Either you train or you don't. It seems to me that most of you have no knowledge of the true traditions of Martial Arts. I can't believe someone who calls themselves Martial Artist are so ignorant to the true risings of the art itself.[/quote]

I'm aware of the risings, but I don't see what
relevance that plays in today's modern society.

Sorry, I live in the 21st century, not the 12th.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you are going to train in a traditional martial art, you should expect injuries.[/quote]

Why? Why should ANYONE expect to be injured from doing training?

What right does someone have to injure me for the sake of training? How can you morally justify this?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have trained for many years and I rarely come away from a training session without bruises. Quite often, it is the new students who cause the bruises too![/quote]

And you're proud of this?! If people are being regularly injured in a class, then there's something WRONG.

Athletes do not injure themselves constantly during training. You don't see rugby players running onto a field covered with bruises from the day before's training.

It's is NOT necessary to beat the snot out of someone to teach them how to fight!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I disagree that arm knocking is useless. We practice a form of arm knocking and I notice people getting harder arms as they progress in skill.[/quote]

You obviously haven't read my message very carefully. I never said that arm knocking was useless. Go read my message again.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>With respect to the original post though, an instructor can only ask you to perform an exercise. If you are hurt or choose not to carry out the exercise, you can opt out. You are a human being with free will. No one can FORCE you to do anything.

And besides, there are two people involved with arm knocking. If you don't want to hit hard, you don't have to. Even if they hit hard you aren't forced to. And if you don't like the training then leave the class.[/quote]

Are you reading ALL of my messages?? Read all of it.

As I said, the welfare/safety of a student is legally the responsibility of the teacher. You can argue about ancient Chinese traditions all you like, but at the end of the day, under current Australian law, it doesn't hold.

It is what is called DUTY OF CARE - which is exactly that -- all teachers have a legal responsibility to take care of their students and to prevent injury. Of course injuries are inevitable with martial arts, but that does NOT excuse a teacher from this law. If an injury occurs despite proper precaution, then the teacher won't be found liable. However, allowing students to participate in an activity that can very well harm them, is negligent.

This is why a science teacher ALWAYS describes and demonstrates an experiment first -- even gets you to read and write down what you're going to do -- before you start an experiment. This is also why the teacher's desk has an emergency main switch to all gas, water and electricity in the room, so s/he can shut everything down in case of an emergency - and usually, the gas and electricity is never turned on outside of the duration of an experiment.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Shoalin monks do train hard, and they are full time monks i.e. they don't have other jobs to go to. But they also have to get up and train the next day and carry out chores. And yes, they are beaten if they fail to do so. I know. I have been to Shaolin and trained with the monks for a short time.[/quote]

And this is morally justifiable because why??
No offence, but the People's Republic of China isn't exactly reknowned for respecting human rights.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As far as your examples go, they are not quite valid. If you go to a boxing school, you get hit. If you play football, you get hit. No difference.[/quote]

That's rubbish. Boxing schools do NOT beat up their students during training. They hit bags or use gloves, mouthguards and helmets during training. Even then, boxing is a very controversial sport amongst the medical community -- many doctors argue that it should be banned.

As for footy, they do take precautions. They also build their endurance up gradually. When you learn to play rugby, first thing you do is tackle against a sponge. Then you tackle against a padded person. Then you tackle a heavy bag. They do NOT get a first time rugby player to run out on the field and tackle someone.

Professional rugby players have spent years of gradual conditioning and training to build their endurance.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And BTW, I do not believe there is any requirement for a instructor to be qualified by the AIS. Kung fu is not a sport. It is also not a requirement of the insurance companies for instructors to be AIS qualified. In fact, most instructors aren't.[/quote]

Actually, you are right about that. I stand corrected.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>goktimus, if you don't know what Dit Da is, and you don't know the history of kung fu (eg. that there is a shaolin temple in fujian province...did it never occur to you that southern shaolin may have come from the south?) [/quote]

Really? Show me. Point it out to me on a map and show me some photos of this place.
If it does exist, then why is it called Shaolin temple, instead of Fujian? I always thought that there was only one Shaolin temple - in Shaolin.

But if you can prove otherwise, I welcome your evidence with open arms.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>what makes you think you're in any way fit to walk in off the street and judge the training methods of a kung fu style?[/quote]

1. I've also been training in Kung Fu for quite some time -- although most of it has been Northern Kung Fu. And our school also does body hardening conditioning exercises -- the difference is that it's GRADUAL. Like I said in my message (I'm getting a feeling that you guys haven't bothered to read it properly), it's NOT arm-knocking that I'm criticising, it's the way it was employed in that school (and to their credit, they no longer train like that anymore).

2. I'm a student teacher. The fundamental principles of teaching are the same across all subjects - be it martial arts, languages, maths, science, geography etc., because it's all about passing information from one person to another.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>people like yourself with a victim mentality, who want to talk about the "legality" of a training technique, take no responsibility for their own actions and should consider a more gentle hobby.[/quote]

Rubbish.

The welfare of a student is the responsibility of the teacher. There is no way around that, because it is the law.

These are usually words people use to scare others into not filing a complaint.

NOBODY has the right to cause harm to you. It is morally/ethically abhorrent and illegal too. If you do inflict harm onto someone, there needs to be an ethically (and ultimately legally) justifiable reason, such as self defense (ie: you needed to inflict harm onto that person in order to protect yourself - and even then, by law, you must use lesser or equal force as your assailant).

Negligence is when you can show that the teacher did not take necessary precautions to ensure that you would not be injured.

For example, I once taught a year nine class to make Japanese food. This involved using knives to cut meat and vegetables. I ensured that ALL students with knives were to use the desks immediately surrounding the teacher's table, so that they would be in my immediate line of site. In fact, during this lesson, ALL the students were at the front of the classroom. And of course, I had a second teacher in the room as well.

I gave them all clear instructions on how to use the knives, gave demonstrations on how to safely use and pass and store knives.

Now, if a student then cut themselves (fortunately, nobody did), then *I* would not be responsible, because I took proper precautions with warnings, demonstrations and keeping them in view. However, the student is still entitled to seek compensation from the school, because it is the school's responsibility to maintain that all students are safe while they are at school. This is why truancy is illegal - not just because they're skipping class, but because the school cannot supervise the child while s/he is outside supervised school grounds (which is also why schools have "out of bounds" areas). But if a student is injured while at school, s/he can sue the school or the department.

When I was in junior high school, a friend of mine was beat up by a school bully, causing him leg injuries. His parents filed a suit against the school and won, because despite the fact that the bully had beaten him up without the school's approval, the law states that it is still the school's responsibility to maintain student safety while they are there.

The same applies for martial arts schools. The school is responsible for the welfare of students while they are there.

Now, unless an instructor is grossly negligent, s/he should have nothing to worry about, because their insurance will cover it.

If your instructor takes the necessary precautions to prevent injury, and you get injured, you CAN take legal action against that school/instructor. But if it can be proven that the teacher was NOT negligent, that is, that s/he had taken precautions to prevent you from being injured (within reason), then all s/he has to do is escalate the complaint on to his/her insurance company which will cover the costs of recuperation etc.

If you're a martial arts instructor and a student comes to complain about an injury, unless you've been careless/negligent in your teaching, then you have NOTHING to fear, because your insurance will cover it.

So really, good martial arts teachers have nothing to fear.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>couldn't you determine for yourself to what intensity you wish to participate in a basic drill?[/quote]

A teacher cannot presume that a student knows any better. After all, they ARE the student, who has come to LEARN better.

You can't say, "oh, you should've known," because of COURSE they don't know. That's WHY they've come to your school -- to LEARN!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>from what you have described it sounds as though you weren't attacked or bullied but just failed to cope with a basic exercise.[/quote]

I never said I was attacked or bullied. Again, read properly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>also, the rules of this forum ask that you do not slander an instructor or school.[/quote]

I'm criticising a teaching technique. Which this instructor and school (neither of which I've named) has since modified to meet legal safety standards.

"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle (284-322 BC)