Duty of Care

[lungyuil]

prana, abandit,FOD,
don't waste your time or energy these guys are too busy quoting the law to understand traditional training.

In the old days Dit Da was used by teachers to heal students injuries during training.

Ego, the monks weren't ignorant in the old days, they were very intelligent regarding martial arts. We still train in the old ways, we are still amazed that they could understand the human body,chi flow and predict times for energy flow with the little knowledge they had.

You guys can only preach the law. If you can't handle it just don't do it. Simple as that. Don't come hear preaching that the law states this & that.

Why do you think i couldn't be bothered replying to stupid questions? :D

Time to get more bruises!! :)

[joedoe]

Actually, I don't think prana was embellishing the facts about Shaolin monks. My Sifu has related stories similar to what prana has described, and he studied at Shaolin as a lay student for years.

And a lot of Shaolin monks did learn to control pain to the point where you could hit them in the testicles or in the head with a hammer and not be bothered by it.

In my opinion, while the martial arts have roots in ancient times, they still hold much relevance to us today. As the name suggests, martial arts are a form of art, and in my opinion are timeless. The teachings of traditional martial arts will be just as relevant in 50 years time as they were 600 years ago.

I am not proud of the fact that I come away from my training with bruises, but what I am saying is that you can get bruises from any physical endeavour. I play volleyball and come away with bruises - and that is a non-contact sport.

And I have also played rugby - just because you don't see the injuries doesn't mean they aren't there. And yes, you do get sent out on the field in your first game and are expected to tackle a person, and no I didn't start tackling a sponge.

I read all of your messages and I understand your point about duty of care, but as I said you cannot be FORCED to do something. I don't know anything about the school you are describing but I doubt they would have prevented you from leaving the kwoon.

Boxing schools do beat up students during training - that is called sparring. I don't remember you saying you were beaten up. I thought you said you received injuries during arm knocking. However the point is, that if you participate in a contact activity, you are bound to experience contact. I'm not saying that you should get beaten up, but some contact is expected.

And Fish of Death is right - there are several Shaolin temples. Go read your Chinese history. There is no such place as Shaolin other than the temples. Shaolin literally means 'little forest' and was named so because of the small forest that the Hunan temple was built close to. But like many religious orders, they had more than one centre, at least two of which were in the south.

I guess the main thing though is that the school you mentioned (and you actually did kind of name them ;-)) has altered its policy to try and ensure this doesn't happen again.

ABandit:
Yes of course I'm right! I did mention "might have met a psycho instructor" as I know that I have not met him or her in person or heard the other side of the story. However, what I'm getting at is A WORD OF CAUTION that there are good instructors and there are also shoddy operators out there. The point is, there are many schools and many more people claiming to be this or that. There really isn't any official standard of quality control. Just be careful and don't be afraid to question.

Goktimus is right - the point is he is able to relate it back to Australian Law as a benchmark for a standard of practice - that's fine even by me. I think you seem to take a moderate view which I'm pleased.

But I pity people like Para who is caught up in this fantasy KF land of fantastic beings from Shaw Brothers production. These are the people who can be conned to jump of cliffs by any old man claiming to be from Shaolin chanting ahhh Buddah be praised. By the way Parra, Dit Dar causes hair loss - ever seen a Shaolin monk with a full head of hair?

Lungyuil: You misunderstand my point. The point is IGNORANCE does NOT mean UNINTELLIGENT. You could be a genius but if you're not exposed to facts XYZ then you'll be ignorant of facts XYZ. But if you're aware of the facts and blatently disregards it then you're STUPID! People in the past are no less intelligent than the people today - that's a scientific fact! The difference is the larger pool of knowledge we have today. I hope I've cleared up your confusion!

Ego Maximize!

[joedoe]

Ego,

Point taken about POSSIBLE psycho instructors. Your original posting didn't sound that way that's all. I guess if you put it that way, there are all sorts of students out there too - even psycho ones 8^).

I disagree about the old Shaolin monks being ignorant. Just because they didn't have certain knowledge available to them doesn't make them ignorant. If people choose to follow traditions it also doesn't make them stupid. It may seem strange, but it is unfair to call them stupid.

Also, there is the whole difference in paradigms. Chinese thought on various things is very different than Western thought. What the Chinese consider to be fact, many Westerners would consider to be wrong and vice versa. Does this make everyone ignorant?

[Fish of Fury]

goktimus
you make the point that we all have jobs to go to, and then you expect us to read ALL of your messages? nobody has that much time.I hope you don't talk this much in class!

but seriously...
i don't know anything about the class you went to, but i think if a school wants to train in a traditional fashion it's actually quite irresponsible to go waving the law around trying to stop them. if you don't like it , simply train somewhere else!
as for the law,i agree with lungyuil.
the law is imperfect, and is put in place as a last resort when something goes wrong ( in my opinion).you shouldn't view it as the ultimate truth, or a prescription for daily living.it's my opinion that this is a bad attitude to have.

and before you quote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights again...we are talking about a bruise here aren't we? in my school we also expect some degree of pain and bruising ( although we do improve gradually as you suggest, nevertheless...you can't improve without some bruising being inevitable) and if that's not your view of appropriate training, SIMPLY TRAIN SOMEWHERE ELSE.use some common sense instead of invoking your rights and ignoring the responsibilities that come with them (such as respecting the rights of others)

as for kungfu history, i believe ABandit may have helped enlighten you.the most famous of the shaolin temples was at mount Songshan in henan province, but there was also at least one well known temple in fujian province.

it genuinely concerns me that attitudes like yours will make real kung fu less and less accessable and deprive it of its spirit.
i don't want to be left with nothing to do in my spare time but study the finer points of law.

as i said before goktimus, i hope you don't come to my class.

Goktimus Prime:

Firstly allow me to summarise: -

1) You attended a kung fu class.
2) Willing participated in the class's activities.
3) Allegedly sustained an injury as a result of the said activities in the said class, in spite of your alleged martial arts experience.
4) Expressed your ill feeling towards the said class and their techniques via means of this forum.

Whilst I don’t disagree with you that the said class’s techniques are to extreme or to rough for you, I certainly don’t see how you are justified in saying that the said class’s techniques are wrong or inappropriate because they are too extreme for you.

My point is based upon the assumption that you were not the only person attending the said class and that there was a number of other students attending the said school willingly.

Further more, regardless of your alleged martial arts experience you are in no position to theorise the inappropriateness of another schools activities or techniques and you are certainly in no position to judge another schools activities and techniques regardless of the schools origins and history.

You attended a martial arts school, you got hurt, you whinged about it and made some sort of poorly founded point, now how about just moving and getting over it.

[lungyuil]

Ego,
so are you saying we should try to use different methods to strenghten our bones & bodies?
Maybe we just like to endure & inflict PAIN :D

Ok guys start popping those pills.

In all the time i have been on the forum there has never been a complaint about the hardness of training or injuries. Because the people enjoy it. Maybe you should start a union & insurance company sueing all kung fu schools.

Keep practicing your chi kung & popping those calcium pills :)

Peace :cool:

You first ABandit:
Please be specific - ignorant of what??? Otherwise you're statement makes no sense! I said ignorant of modern science. There is no way Shaolin Monks can understand human physiology the way we do. They just don't have the equipment. That is not to say they are ignorant of martial arts. Quite the opposite if they had trained intensively. You'll be a fool to dispute the fact that they would be better martial artist if they had our scientific understanding that we have today. You'll be a greater fool to challenge my ego.

You next Lungyuil:
To answer your question: I don't know how you train but ask yourself this: Is it fighting skill that you're trying to accomplish or alternatively, is it the love of pain?

If it the alternative, I'm sure you'll find the a bondage dungeon to satisfy your kinky desires.

That will be all for now. You lot have taught me how to be a little more patience and I've taught you how to be a little wiser.

Ego Maximize!

[lungyuil]

Ego,
at least you finally learnt something, i thought all this effort was a waste of time. Are you a small boy who used to get picked on at school? Just a question.

I see you practice chi kung only. i heard that pot enhances the chi, can you tell me please.

To answer your question, i just love to train. it just seems that you should be knitting jumpers, just be careful you don't stab yourself. You might have another thread on the dangers of knitting.

Lungyuil: "Are you a small boy who used to get picked on at school?"

Ego Maximus: "No. My school understood the DUTY OF CARE! But thanks for your concern in any case. Your concenr for children may make you a good child minder and that may be beneficial to your local community."

Lungyuil: "i heard that pot enhances the chi, can you tell me please."

Ego Maximus: "I dunno. Perhaps you could try and find out. Science is still studying the physiological effects of Pot."

Lungyuil:" it just seems that you should be knitting jumpers, just be careful you don't stab yourself."

Ego Maximus:" I'm unsure how you could logically come to this conclusion (that I should be knitting jumpers). One thing is know though - pot causes hallucinations."

Lungyuil: "You might have another thread on the dangers of knitting."

Ego Maximus: "Yes I may, but this forum won't be appropriate to elaborate on the subject of knitting. Thanks for the interview!"

Ego Maximize!

[Lucky Red]

i cannot brag of training for a very long time
Martial art or know Much about training
but i do know that if youre going to Fight
to defend yourself you MUST!! know Pain from before i have seen poeple loose fights because they cannot take pain

to the person that think that you dont need
Brusies have you ever fought someone ?


the Hardest Fight is the the one With yourself

[Boris]

Ego Maximum ***** and Goktimus God Awfully ugly Primate,
Where do you guys train? In a padded room? Last time I checked only crazy people were in people like that. I practice Wing Chun and we get bruises. I seen some guy get a finger in the eye from Chi Sao and that wasn't even that hard a drill.

So I don't know what you guys do. Nine Step Wanking or something like that? Oh, so sad got bruised....get over it...go and dress up in a drag and attend the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras...they need people like you

If you hold anything back, I'll kill you. If you bend the truth, or if I think you're bending the truth, I'll kill you. If you forget anything, I'll kill you. In fact, you're going to have to work very hard to stay alive, Nick. I hope you understand everything

[joedoe]

Ego,

You really are a w@nker aren't you? You presume that western scientific method is the be all and end all. If you read my reply closely you will notice the bit about different thought paradigms. Or did you go to Goktimus' school of selective reading?

Just because the Shaolin monks did not have modern science available to it doesn't mean that their understanding of the human body was any more or less accurate than that of modern medical science. It was just a different way of looking at it.

If modern science would have made them better martial artists, then why is it that modern science is still trying to figure out how the ancient methods worked? Why would they bother if they didn't think it was worth finding out about?

[Muhammad]

I think we are Being too harsh on Goktimus and Ego, we gotta respect and acknowledge their weakness. I think that any instructor should have realised that Goktimus needed special consideration when he said "Oww, this is painful, stop it!" cause no normal man cries out like that. As we have disable people in our society we have Goktimus in the martial arts world, as we have special services for the disable, we should have special services for Goktimus. We should all acknowledge his weakness as he has done and try to help him compensate for it. This again should have been picked up by readers as he says he is bruised and injured badly in the arm he is still able to write such a long post, showing that he has a very low pain tresh hold. So i say guys enough pickin on weaker people and just say "It's allright to be different goktimus and we accept your weakness" and help him instaed of destroying him

U will always be welcomed to train with me and i will always go soft u as i know u are special :)

There is only one god and Muhammad is his prophet

[Kenji]

That is the funniest post I've ever read for a while! Classic.


Fist of Death,

Which school do you train in?