is this facts?

[Scott R. Brown]

That is just your speculation, you have to do it to find out, reading books does not give you experence.

But I will have to warn you, with all those external exercises you do it will be a lot harder for you to pass through the double doors.

Cheers

You are presuming what my experiences are, which is your fatal flaw, that is the same thing Hendrik tried on me, and once again you are in error!

I know for a FACT there is no silence! You may perceive it as silence because it is RELATIVELY silent, that is, more silent than your common everyday mental chatter, but it is not TRUE silence. If it were TRUE silence there would be nothing to experience and you would not be able to recall the experience, which is the same thing as having no experience at all.

Experiences require a subject and an object. This condition is a duality. At best you have Yin-Yang which is the TRUE condition of ONENESS.

It is both one and many at the same time! True or Absolute Oneness is non-existence! Non-existence cannot be experienced or known.

[YiQuanOne]

You are presuming what my experiences are, which is your fatal flaw, that is the same thing Hendrik tried on me, and once again you are in error!

I know for a FACT there is no silence! You may perceive it as silence because it is RELATIVELY silent, that is, more silent than your common everyday mental chatter, but it is not TRUE silence. If it were TRUE silence there would be nothing to experience and you would not be able to recall the experience, which is the same thing as having no experience at all.

Experiences require a subject and an object. This condition is a duality. At best you have Yin-Yang which is the TRUE condition of ONENESS.

It is both one and many at the same time! True or Absolute Oneness is non-existence! Non-existence cannot be experienced or known.

Who cares what you call it, you still have to do it.

The Moon, the Moon, forget about the finger!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Who cares what you call it, you still have to do it.

The Moon, the Moon, forget about the finger!!

In a sense you are correct, labels are arbitrary, however, once you define your experience you confine it to word descriptions.

While it is difficult to describe an indescribable experience, the words we use to describe it limit the experience and the memory of it. Therefore, it does matter what words one uses to describe the experience.

As an example, I will presume you have had the experience, but because of the way you have described it in your own mind, you could not recognize the simple truth of my statements. So, while it is possible you have had the same experience I have, your memory or definition of it has limited it so much that you cannot recall or perceive the principles of the experience as they actually were.

As long as one believes or interprets their experience as "silent" and does not recognize it is "relative" silence, they misrepresent the experience to others. Once this occurs, you are accidentally contributing to the confusion of others.

If they have a similar experience and they perceive the truth of the matter, that is, it is a relative silence, but you as their expert guide describe it as Absolute Silence, they will tend to reinterpret their experience to conform it to what they THINK it SHOULD be according to your expert opinion, which is not accurate. They may then continue to search for an experience that is impossible to have, thinking they have missed the mark! They will then be stuck until they learn to trust their own direct experience absent the definitions provided by others.

Therefore it is important to be careful how we define the experience to others. Those who have had the experience, absent artificial constructs used to define it, would have easily recognized the "simple" truth of my description as closer to the reality of the experience!

[YiQuanOne]

In a sense you are correct, labels are arbitrary, however, once you define your experience you confine it to word descriptions.

While it is difficult to describe an indescribable experience, the words we use to describe it limit the experience and the memory of it. Therefore, it does matter what words one uses to describe the experience.

As an example, I will presume you have had the experience, but because of the way you have described it in your own mind, you could not recognize the simple truth of my statements. So, while it is possible you have had the same experience I have, your memory or definition of it has limited it so much that you cannot recall or perceive the principles of the experience as they actually were.

As long as one believes or interprets their experience as "silent" and does not recognize it is "relative" silence, they misrepresent the experience to others. Once this occurs, you are accidentally contributing to the confusion of others.

If they have a similar experience and they perceive the truth of the matter, that is, it is a relative silence, but you as their expert guide describe it as Absolute Silence, they will tend to reinterpret their experience to conform it to what they THINK it SHOULD be according to your expert opinion, which is not accurate. They may then continue to search for an experience that is impossible to have, thinking they have missed the mark! They will then be stuck until they learn to trust their own direct experience absent the definitions provided by others.

Therefore it is important to be careful how we define the experience to others. Those who have had the experience, absent artificial constructs used to define it, would have easily recognized the "simple" truth of my description as closer to the reality of the experience!

Are you a politician?

[Scott R. Brown]

Are you a politician?

LOL! Interesting question!

I prefer not to label myself, because labels carry with them baggage that leads to misunderstanding, since definitions are slightly different from individual to individual. So, politician to me might mean something slightly different than what politician means to you.

If I HAD to choose a definition, "philosopher" comes closest, except that even that word is inaccurate.

In essence it doesn't matter, I am ME! Just as you are YOU!

[SimonM]

I'm a fiction writer.

People pay me money to produce beautiful lies that speak to truth.

I suppose that's somewhat like being a philosopher.

[rett]

re read my post above.

Ah, you added some bits.

Yes I agree. But that means that the posture called "standing Wuji" is not wuji. Wuji supports everything, so it is just as much present in the posture "falling backwards on ice-skates cracking own skull". Just because the relaxed starting stance has the nice name "wuji" doesn't privilege it with relation to real wuji. Wuji is just a concept or metaphor that perhaps can help you get the right feeling while standing. But that feeling will be relative and conditioned just as someone else wrote above.

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm a fiction writer.

People pay me money to produce beautiful lies that speak to truth.

I suppose that's somewhat like being a philosopher.

I agree, on of the things that fiction writers do is explore the human condition, creating motivation for their characters, creating social structures/ societies for their characters. This means they look for insights into the problems and challenges of human experiences.

I have learned many philosophical principles from reading fiction.

As a matter of fact, one of my favorite aphorisms came from a Pers Anthony fantasy novel I read some 30 years ago, "The opinions of worthless people are worthless!"

Ah, you added some bits.

Yes I agree. But that means that the posture called "standing Wuji" is not wuji. Wuji supports everything, so it is just as much present in the posture "falling backwards on ice-skates cracking own skull". Just because the relaxed starting stance has the nice name "wuji" doesn't privilege it with relation to real wuji. Wuji is just a concept or metaphor that perhaps can help you get the right feeling while standing. But that feeling will be relative and conditioned just as someone else wrote above.

Well said, you could just as easily call sitting on the toilet Wuji as anything else!

[Hendrik]

Ah, you added some bits.

Yes I agree. But that means that the posture called "standing Wuji" is not wuji.

Wuji supports everything, so it is just as much present in the posture "falling backwards on ice-skates cracking own skull".

Just because the relaxed starting stance has the nice name "wuji" doesn't privilege it with relation to real wuji.

Wuji is just a concept or metaphor that perhaps can help you get the right feeling while standing.

But that feeling will be relative and conditioned just as someone else wrote above.

one returns to Wuji with Wu ji standing practice, thus it is called Wuji stance. the chinese is very precise on the naming.


as for all the feeling, the speculation.....etc i am ok with what you like to think.

[Miqi]

Don't mind my temporary interuption...

This video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqG8fS4BBS4

Those schools which teach the kinds of things where people are just touched and fly away are beyond my understanding, as is most of the stuff people are talking about in this thread, and I'm quite happy to accept that my level is shameful, as the people here obviously know and do practise Chinese martial arts in ways that I can't comprehend.

For those who are interested in the more basic techniques practised in completely orthodox, mainstream schools who haven't yet achieved any real understanding, I present my video, as promised - although it is too shameful to represent 'yiquan' - it just shows basic practise of pushing skills.

For those interested in this more basic level of martial art, and orthodox yiquan theory, the technical points worth noting are:

1. In 'polite' push hands people usually don't release energy to a full degree hence, when they 'push' they often just 'brace' - i.e. step back with the back foot, take the weight, and give a little push. But for genuinely pushing people in the yiquan method with full power, allyour energy must issue in the direction you're pushing, and it must be instant - so, you can notice that I don't step back and brace. You can try it on a bag - it's not incredibly difficult, but it's harder to do at first than you think and requires practise. This allows you to just suddenly 'burst' forwards, without the half a second lost stepping back.

2. There is a slight but significant difference between pushing when your hands arealready on the target, and pushing when they aren't. Try putting your hands on the bag or opponent and releasing energy in the same way as when you hit from even a slight difference, and you will feel the difference. You will probably also notice the 'bracing' problem kick in here.

With a little practice, you can find both ways and naturalise them. Most techniques should be practised in two versions - one with hands already touching, one where they're not, otherwise, you'll only be able to do one properly.

3. The hardest thing to get is the correct relaxation. Try to relax your shoulders and arms more, and you should beging to feel more power.

4. Making it work in practise is significantly harder than making it work on a bag.

For those interested in the practical method of yiquan, and for those interested in stuff that seems to you to be much higher level, good luck - I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Scott R. Brown]

Nice vid miqi!

It is nothing to be ashamed of. It is a good use of biomechanics.

Your power will increase as your explosiveness and timing develop!

[rett]

That's a cool vid thanks.

Just by way of a question. What would happen if instead of a bag you did the exact same motions against a large tense inflated ball with very high pressure that is securely fixed?

And same scenario except at the instant you make contact the ball releases a little pressure (very slight), rotates slightly, and re-fills with pressure again as fast as an airbag in a car (but very small total difference in diameter).All this happens in maybe .25 second from you making contact and while you are committing to your push.

I think you would "fly away" or at least be very uprooted.

I don't know if this contraption would be really possible to build, but I would like to be able to function like such a ball. Anyway that's my picture of how the "flying away" should work... not saying I'm good at it or anything.

[Scott R. Brown]

That's a cool vid thanks.

Just by way of a question. What would happen if instead of a bag you did the exact same motions against a large tense inflated ball with very high pressure that is securely fixed?

And same scenario except at the instant you make contact the ball releases a little pressure (very slight), rotates slightly, and re-fills with pressure again as fast as an airbag in a car (but very small total difference in diameter).All this happens in maybe .25 second from you making contact and while you are committing to your push.

I think you would "fly away" or at least be very uprooted.

I don't know if this contraption would be really possible to build, but I would like to be able to function like such a ball. Anyway that's my picture of how the "flying away" should work... not saying I'm good at it or anything.

This very same, or similar principle may be used with people!

It takes practice and timing and may be used against strikes and kicks. If you make a very short and sharp movement towards the strike or kick just the instant before it contacts you, you break the opponents timing and will send them backwards, with practice. (edit: Actually, it is just as contact is made, but just prior to full extension of the strike or kick, there is a little variation involved, you have maybe 1-3 inches of play depending upon the opponent and how they strike.)

Practice with your partner pushing your shoulder. It must be from a specific distance where contact is made at or near full extension. Then, just before contact, sharply move your shoulder "into" the push/strike. It doesn't need to be an exaggerated movement, although you may want to exaggerate it at the beginning while you are learning the move. But as you improve all it takes is a slight abrupt movement, at the right time, and you will send your opponent backwards.

Kicks are a little bit easier to send someone backwards.

BTW, these only work on straight punches and kicks not the circular ones, but if you abruptly move yourself into a circular punch you may still fracture your opponents hand or wrist because it throws his timing off.

[Hendrik]

Miqi;1115783

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqG8fS4BBS4

Those schools which teach the kinds of things where people are just touched and fly away are beyond my understanding, as is most of the stuff people are talking about in this thread, and I'm quite happy to accept that my level is shameful, as the people here obviously know and do practise Chinese martial arts in ways that I can't comprehend.

For those who are interested in the more basic techniques practised in completely orthodox, mainstream schools who haven't yet achieved any real understanding, I present my video, as promised - although it is too shameful to represent 'yiquan' - it just shows basic practise of pushing skills.

The video is great.

it clearly shows a common Wushu, Shao lin, karate,,, mmA, Boxer type of power/momentum generation.

That is not Yiquan type of power/momentum generation or Fa li.


There is nothing to do with Shameful it only has to do with is it or is it not Yiquan Fa li type.

For those interested in this more basic level of martial art, and orthodox yiquan theory, the technical points worth noting are:

1. In 'polite' push hands people usually don't release energy to a full degree hence, when they 'push' they often just 'brace' - i.e. step back with the back foot, take the weight, and give a little push. But for genuinely pushing people in the yiquan method with full power, allyour energy must issue in the direction you're pushing, and it must be instant - so, you can notice that I don't step back and brace. You can try it on a bag - it's not incredibly difficult, but it's harder to do at first than you think and requires practise. This allows you to just suddenly 'burst' forwards, without the half a second lost stepping back.

2. There is a slight but significant difference between pushing when your hands arealready on the target, and pushing when they aren't. Try putting your hands on the bag or opponent and releasing energy in the same way as when you hit from even a slight difference, and you will feel the difference. You will probably also notice the 'bracing' problem kick in here.

With a little practice, you can find both ways and naturalise them. Most techniques should be practised in two versions - one with hands already touching, one where they're not, otherwise, you'll only be able to do one properly.

3. The hardest thing to get is the correct relaxation. Try to relax your shoulders and arms more, and you should beging to feel more power.

4. Making it work in practise is significantly harder than making it work on a bag.

For those interested in the practical method of yiquan, and for those interested in stuff that seems to you to be much higher level, good luck - I hope you find what you're looking for.

I believe the above come with a good heart.
however, it is actually will not get to the Yiquan type of Kung fu due to the core of the momentum generation practice is not Yiquan type; and thus , this will not get to the intermediate level of Yiquan but default into a Wushu, Shao Lin, Hung Gar mma type of art.


The issue here is, as alots of TCMA, one train one way and practice in another way. and thus, one repeat the curriculum of a style but never develop the kung fu of the style. and due to that, what one practice evolve into something else.

[Hendrik]

This very same, or similar principle may be used with people!

It takes practice and timing and may be used against strikes and kicks. If you make a very short and sharp movement towards the strike or kick just the instant before it contacts you, you break the opponents timing and will send them backwards, with practice. (edit: Actually, it is just as contact is made, but just prior to full extension of the strike or kick, there is a little variation involved, you have maybe 1-3 inches of play depending upon the opponent and how they strike.)

Practice with your partner pushing your shoulder. It must be from a specific distance where contact is made at or near full extension. Then, just before contact, sharply move your shoulder "into" the push/strike. It doesn't need to be an exaggerated movement, although you may want to exaggerate it at the beginning while you are learning the move. But as you improve all it takes is a slight abrupt movement, at the right time, and you will send your opponent backwards.

Kicks are a little bit easier to send someone backwards.

BTW, these only work on straight punches and kicks not the circular ones, but if you abruptly move yourself into a circular punch you may still fracture your opponents hand or wrist because it throws his timing off.

These above is valid because it is using a so called "exteral" art momentum / power generation.

In the Internal art momentum/ power generation the result will not be this way.