Banned
That is not really what I am talking about.Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
I am not using yang and yin as who's turn it is to attack, unless I was talking about boxing.
I am referenceing about being in contact with opponent and neutralizing his attack.
Moo Moo
i think all agree that fight with minimal effort or win without fight.
yes it all depending on the opponent
if you are strong, and the opponent is weak. no need to fight, b/c everyone knows that you will win.
if you are almost equal with your opponent, that is where you try to outmaneuver the opponent with timing and space, a lot of yin and yang going.
if you are weak and the opponent is strong, yes we run
if you have the green mountain with trees, you will always have fire wood to burn
save your strength and fight another day especially when the opponent is somehow weak at a particular moment and place.
---
Moo Moo
yes talking about evolution of human history on this planet.
me love the myth and movie of "battle of LA during ww ii"
Registered User
Neutralize your opponent's attack = borrow your opponent's force to against him
Registered User
You will be missed and we will avenge your death by quoting ancient chinese aphorisms we don't understand?
Registered User
For example:
The idea/principle that water does not contend is false! It is an artificial construct created and agreed upon by those with an investment in it being true even though it can be demonstrated that it is clearlly false, at least in some instances!
Crashing waves? Water contending with the shore!
Tidal wave? Water contending with the shore and everything in its path!
Rough seas? Water contending with ships!
Waterfalls? Water contending with rocks and river floor!
Water cannon? Water contending with the target!
Fire hose? Water contending with fire!
Flooding river? Water contending with everything in its path!
Water that finds the lowest level and just sits there stagnates and breeds disease!
Steam, a form of water will singe the skin right off your face!
Water has good and bad qualities that may benefit AND harm, if one wishes to emulate water can they ignore its harmful effects and call themselves followers of Tao?
If one blindly accepts aphorisms, no matter their antiquity, and refuses to think for themeselves and question them, they are trapped by their own foolish ignorance!
Registered User
Hello, I actually do practise yiquan - I've been a practitioner for around ten years, and I have a much longer histroy in Chinese martial arts. I'm not the greatest yiquan guy in the world - I'm just an amatuer practitioner, like most people on this forum I guess - but I'm happy to make a few comments, and clear a few things up.
Firstly, there are lots of people who use the name 'yiquan'. Many, I suspect, wouldn't actually agree with a lot of the things Wang Xiang Zhai and his senior students and descendants said or say. Zhao Dao Xin, for example, would clearly - explcitly - have been on the side of the doubters in this debate. What one finds is that 'yiquan' people, when finding that out, tend to excommuniucate senior yiquan masters - even Wang himself. How far that is credible, I'm not sure.
Firstly, Wang lost interest in the idea of 'qi'. Some practitioners, however, including some of his students, retain the idea. 'Qi' has a complex relationship with Chinese martial arts thinking. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter how you describe what you do - the description won't affect the truth of what people can or can not actually do.
Secondly, although 'internal' is used now to describe yiquan, even for example by the Yao brothers, their father and Wang didn't use this idea. Wang famously said that he didn't know what it meant.
Thirdly, Yao Zong Xun didn't believe that old wushu masters performed amazing tricks of making people flay away with a light touch. Videos of master Yao clearly show that he himself couldn't do anything like that, and yet he is regarded as one of Wang's top students. People who do show videos of that must, therefore, have a massively higher level than old Yao. That could be - but it's beyond my understanding, and I find more use in Yao's descriptions and performances. Master Yao actually said, more than once, that old Chinese wushu was much more like Thai boxing than, for example, tai chi.
Fourthly, Wang wrote at a time when 'science' and applying science to everything was the dominant idea. Rightly or wrongly, he wanted to apply science to martial arts. To a certain extent, that's valid I think - and the result, in sport, is partly stuff like MMA, which far from being oppositeor contrary to yiquan is fully in line with the original ideas and ambitions of yiquan theory. However, what Wang did want was scientific discourse - peer review, open questioning, research. What he, and students like Yao and Zhao Dao Xin clearly - explicitly - wanted was for people to question both yiquan and other arts, and for those questions to be broached scientifically - i.e. honestly and impersonally. The key word their is impersonally. The 'facts' of fighting training can't be bullied, threatened or insulted in to being true. I'm sorry that some 'yiquan' people do that, but, their approach to yiquan isn't what I recognise as the yiquan Wang and his students talked about.
All that being said, there is no reason why any yiquan person - or even MMA fighter - shouldn't use the paradigms of 'qi' or 'internal' - these are just descriptions. What matters is what they describe - i.e. the actual abilities, events and skill sets.
If I can, I'll be happy to answer some questions, as far as I'm able, on yiquan theory - but without insulting people. I'm afraid I don't know any secrets of the ancients!
Registered User
Great!
Could you please share and elaborate six directional force and Hun Yan Li practice?
how to issue spiral li ?
also, do you do the four dances?
Thanks!
Last edited by Hendrik; 07-08-2011 at 12:27 PM.
Registered User
Hello Hendrick, thanks for your question.
Learning yiquan is extremely physical, but there are also some ideas that need to be wrestled with. The first is how to 'disappoint expectations'. Wang talked about this, when he mentioned letting go of fantasies of the past, to see that the real martial art was actually much more down to Earth - and therefore, achievable.
In the same sense, 'hunyuan li' and 'omnidirectional force' tend to 'appoint' over bolwn expectation in people who don't have the physical experience of them. Once that happens, there's almost no stopping the fantasy expectations - and people are literally 'dis-appointed' when they find out the truth; they feel like 'oh that? It's just that?' And people actually become quite hostile to protect their expectations from being disappointed.
Actually, hunyuan li and omnidirectional force are perfectly down to earth physical things. From zhan zhuang, for example 'tree hugging', after a few minutes of relaxation if you 'squeeze' gently, you will feel a resistance. Some people feel that this is qi - especially if it is accompanied by tingling from blood draining away from the hands. Maybe that is what qi is.
What is happening with that 'resistance' feeling is an interesting area of speculation. However, what is not open to speculation - what is open to anyone finding out - is that that feeling of resistance can be significantly intensified - especially when combined with imagination and visualisation.
From squeezing in, you can then push out, and feel the same feeling. This is entirely physical, but there's no reason why we can't describe in the qi paradigm if we so choose. After some time, one can create this feeling all over the body - with the whole body, for example pushing back, or up. At times, rather counter-intuitively, one can feel this force in opposite directions - for example as though you were pushing out and pulling back. This is, I believe, because the brain is firing the nerves that initiate both movements. The hardest thing to get is that as the feeling intensifies, you have to relax in to it, to make it more intense - which seems counter intuitive. The feeling you feel is 'hunyuan li'. It is very disappointing I know. That's a really good step, though - it brings 'legendary' skills firmly in the ordinary realm, and yiu realise that Wang and other were always talking about this feeling. Yao Zing Xun, for example, explians this process extremely clearly, as do his sons in various articles.
'Omnidirectional force' has two possible meanings. One, is that you can extend this feeling in multiple directions - for example 'playing' with the feeling by pushing out, in, up down - which, if you look carefully at peope doing zhan zhuang is often what they are imperceptibly doing. 'Shi li' or slow movement is just an extension of this feeling in to bigger movements.
The second meaning is the odd, already mentioned feeling of having hunyuan li simultaneously in more than one direction.
'Spiral li' is, similarly, something to be disappointed. To use whole body force requires a number of different ways of using the body. To push forwards with both hands, for example, uses a different kind of movement to a yiquan jab - it has to, for obvious reasons of body mechanics. To twist each part of the body in to a punch can be - and is - described as a spiralling movement, but it's nothing particularly unusual once learned - it's still useless without the ability to throw combinations, defend, etc.
Yiquan 'fight' and 'health' dance are aspects of the same thing, and these two in themselves may vary anywhere from pure free movement with no martial application, through to pure, boxing style shadow boxing.
Yiquan and has many and varied different aspects, some applicable to specific schools, some to specific individuals - not everyone does everything, and even the ideas and methods of the founders are constantly open to review and change.
Clearly, this way of presenting yiquan is disappointing. It involves no qi, and no scope for mysterious powers. And yet, on the upside, once your expectations are disappointed, you suddenly realise that what was once only a legendary power is now fully within your capability.
Last edited by Miqi; 07-08-2011 at 01:27 PM.
Registered User
Nicely put miqi, thank you for your contribution. It was very interesting and informative!
Registered User
Thank you for sharing!
You post is great!
Yup, those who know will recognize it. those who tense and keep thinking will not be able to imagine.The second meaning is the odd, already mentioned feeling of having hunyuan li simultaneously in more than one direction.
I would say the word "disappointed" is might not be proper. That is because it is to recognize it is what it is. and to recognize what one's has never recognize before itself is a progress already.'Spiral li' is, similarly, something to be disappointed. To use whole body force requires a number of different ways of using the body. To push forwards with both hands, for example, uses a different kind of movement to a yiquan jab - it has to, for obvious reasons of body mechanics. To twist each part of the body in to a punch can be - and is - described as a spiralling movement, but it's nothing particularly unusual once learned - it's still useless without the ability to throw combinations, defend, etc.
I am not a Yiquan player but a Wing Chuner, I think the spiral li is much important then the combination. without the spiral li, the combination is just general combination that every one does --- based on muscular power mostly.
Spiral li, with or without combination will explode at any point of contact. so, one doesnt even have a to have a combination but let go let God be, where every the continous of contact be that is where it cuts in, just flow with it. saying this the assumption is that one really needs to have the spiral li master otherwise it will not work.
Clearly, this way of presenting yiquan is disappointing. It involves no qi, and no scope for mysterious powers.
And yet, on the upside, once your expectations are disappointed, you suddenly realise that what was once only a legendary power is now fully within your capability.
Again, I think disappointing is not a proper words because most people, even if they do Taiji or ZZ or ..... doesnt really know what is one cultivating. not to mention those who does solid muscle tensing training such as Karate, Boxing...Hung Gar....
Qi certainly involve as an element but it is certainly nothing mysterious.
also, view things differently, with "once your expectations are disappointed, you suddenly realise that what was once...... is fully within your capability"
that is because if one doesnt have a sifu to coach one, one will never get there even if one's expectations are disappointed 10000X.
on the contradiction, when one recognize and cultivate it and master it. it is many X beyond's one's expectation because it open up another dimension for one to play.
and, in my opinion, unless one get to the level of recognize it, one cant discuss about it because the mind just doesnt know.
Thanks again for your patient write up.
Banned
Sounds like you did some standing but was not able to attain the movement of the Qi, using the mind Yi, because if you did you would realize that it is beyond your expectations and that it is not in the grasp of other people.
I know a lot of people that did standing for 10 years and did not get anything from it, they were doing it wrong, when corrected they had results in no time.
If your teacher does not have results, it is likely you will not either.
If you have no teacher and try to do it from books, you will probably never reach a usable level in a short time.
Registered User
in my understanding,
authentic,
YiQuan's standing if according to the teaching of WXZ doesnt pay attention to Qi even thought it doesnt mean it has no Qi component. Thus, it doesnt pay attention to Qi movement it is a holistic practice.
Actaully, movement of the Qi using the mind is a problematic practice for most people. This type of practice cause lots of problem if it was not personally coach.
This is where Pien Cha or side track comes into the picture for many martial artists which lead to failure .
Last edited by Hendrik; 07-08-2011 at 06:31 PM.
Registered User
It's a metaphor or an analogy. You can break any analogy if you push it further than the point it's trying to elucidate.
If you look at how water moves and get a feeling from that, this sort of feeling can be a way to understand the idea of a way of moving or of a mental attitude. That's what a metaphor like that is for, not to prove some categorical statements about the physics of water.
I'd think that the points you bring up about water contending are good analogies too. Soft arts where you try to be like water can still focus this softness into destructive power.
Registered User
Hi Yiquanone, thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, Wang Zhang Zhai, Yao Zong Xun, for example, didn't believe use the concept of 'qi' in their yiquan training. So what you're saying here is that Wang and Yao didn't really know yiquan. Which simply isn't credible.
This is what I mean when I say that to continue to believe what you 'think' yiquan is, you have to excommunicate senior yiquan masters. Now we have the situation where the actual descriptions and methods used by real yiquan people, including me, are rejected by you, because they don't fit the 'expectations' which you've appointed about yiquan.
This creates a process of continually inflating and misinterpreting perfectly down to earth sports concepts in to mystical super powers which no one actually has within yiquan. Then when no one lives up to those expectations, you think 'you're not the real yiquan!' - because you're expecting something so much more than it really is.
Wanting real knowledge of yiquan is a dis-appointing process. The second mental tool one learns is that many things in Chinese martial arts are actually the reverse of what they appear to be. The 'amazing mystical concepts' actually refer to perfectly ordinary physiological processes.
Most amusing of all, the process of zhan zhuang, which so many people pridefully convince themselves is attracting qi to them, every day making them more and more powerful, propelling them furhter and further beyond the ordinary people with every second of standing, is actually just a process of remedial training for people whose bodies are effectively crippled by lazy use (This is the theory - I'm not saying, personally, that people are crippled - except in the sense of people who do no exercise aren't using their bodies as functionally well as people who do. This is simply the idea of zhan zhuang). Far from elevating you from the ordinary, zhan zhuang is an extremely basic exercise, designed to help people better learn how to use their body properly. There is no reason why that can't be said to be involving qi - but there is also no way that it is anything but a basic training exercise to prevent our bodies from slipping further in to 'every day atrophy'.
The idea of yiquan which you present is simply an expectation. We've all been there. It's what attracted us to yiquan in the first place. But then yiquan becomes a filter, to separate those who want the real Chinese martial arts and fighting knowledge from those who actually, if they're honest, were looking for something else.
Last edited by Miqi; 07-09-2011 at 02:54 AM.
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