i love mahler, talk about bulls marketing, he had never trained a fighter in his life when he came out with that dvdOriginally Posted by Zenshiite
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i love mahler, talk about bulls marketing, he had never trained a fighter in his life when he came out with that dvd
Poet of Pugilism
In the article I only said it was more specific than other drills. It all lies on a continuum that moves from general drills to highly specific ones.
I wouldn't consider the split stance snatch to be highly specific but it is certainly more specific than then the swing or jump squats.
It's also much more specific than any of the Powerlifts. Remember specificity is more about training at similar speeds and intensities. You also get a great balance challenge from the lift that you don't get from Squats or Deadlifts. Being able to control forces that are trying to throw you off balance while you are in that split stance is very relevant to the martial artist - I don't think anyone would argue with that.
Also, I'm not saying that the Powerlifts are bad either. I'm a standing press addict. In fact, I wrote an article on some of those lifts here:
4 Barbell Drills Every Fighter Needs! (now THAT was slick. Shamelessly promoting two articles in one thread...I'm proud of myself)
But it's a good idea to change up your routine and add stuff that challenges your body in different ways.
Also, thanks for bringing up coach Rooney's book (Training for Warriors). It is an AWESOME resource. A little light on theory but more than makes up for it in providing detailed info on some really great exercises and training protocols (Hurricanes are murder)
Train Hard,
Josh Skinner
Last edited by donjitsu2; 07-08-2011 at 06:44 AM. Reason: FORMATTING!!!!!
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[Actually since both the swing and the jump squat teach you to explode the hips through as you come up from a squat position (just like a double leg or body lift you could argue they are just if not more specific
As for being more specific than the power lifts, surely specificey is also about training with similar weight and moving it in the path you will be working in in real life? the squat and deadlift teach you to stand up from a square position with added weight, they teach you back straight head up and to snap your hips through as you explode up and drive through your heels, just like you would do in a flair double or body lock and lift, they also teach you to overload the muscles used in those lifts in a way kettlebells never will. As for the whole speed issue a 200kg squatter will move a 100kg squat at a very fast speed, and be able to move a 100kg opponent around much easier than someone who spends most of their time snatching 24kg
As for a balance challenge how does hold a weight above your head whilst in a backleg extended lunge teach you the kind of balance needed to deal with an opponent moving into you or away from you as you move forwards? Is it hard and demanding on core strength, yes… does it actually translate into fighting….i doubt it certainly not any more than the balance required to come out of the bottom of a 200kg squat
For fighting id go with the bench press over the standing press, much more movement specific for grapplers and punchers, since although you are laying down the movement pattern is still in the same plane as the press, but that’s just me
Yes it’s a good idea to change your routine every now and then, but with only a limited amount of time to train one should really question a lifts worth before adding it (and thus taking away time from other training)
For me powerlift, and get your specific strength from your actual sport,
And I agree about martin rooney he is a proven coach, and a class act he spent months answering questions from me over at elite when he was on there, he had no right to be as nice and free with the information as he was, everyone can learn a lot from him, I liked his video more than his book, and personally joel jamisons book was the best I have seen on MMA conditioning
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Martin Rooney fans enjoy :
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...e_a_man_part_3
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Poet of Pugilism
Frost, I don't think you and I are disagreeing as much as it may seem.
I just think I'm not making myself clear.
Here's my definition of specificity (related exercises)
"A principle that states athletes should be training exercises/lifts that closely mimic the movements, muscular contraction speed (and type), and metabolic demands of their chosen sport"
Pretty textbook definition. I don't think anyone would argue with that.
So, the split style snatch isn't TRULY specific for martial arts. Hitting the heavy bag and focus mitts, shadow boxing, and sparring are TRULY sport specific.
However, the split snatch is MORE specific than other exercises because it closely mimics both the metabolic demands and muscular contraction speed/type (depending on the weight or intensity used). The split stance utilized in the lift isn't exactly the same as a combat athlete or martial artist would use but it is a close approximation (really more of an exaggeration):
If you go back and read the article I never said the movement was sport specific. I only said it was more specific relative to other exercises.
So, if we think about the drill on a continuum, the split style snatch is step away from the general end and, thus, a step toward the specific end.
Not trying to be controversial
the muscle recruitment patters and energy requirements of the various lifts and exercises aren't equal, and neither are the adaptations to those lifts.
Your right they are more specific for those movement but not necessarily for other movements.
Yes. Specificity is about moving against similar resistance, at similar speed, and with similar movement patterns.
If we look at a powerlift like the Deadlift we see that it is very specific when talking about preparing people for picking heavy things off the floor. But, when we talk about strength training for martial artists and combat athletes it tends to be more on the General side of the spectrum, because they aren't done at similar speeds (they are relatively slow), they aren't done with similar resistance levels (people Deadlift HEAVY), and Deadlifts don't mimic too many movements within martial arts or combat sports.
I'm not saying that the Powerlifts are useless - you simply can't build high levels of other strength qualities without first building pretty good levels of absolute strength.
The Powerlifts are great for building absolute or Raw strength. Raw strength is the foundation of a strength training program but that also means it falls on the general side of the specificity continuum.
Well, the lift isn't meant to work the same way Squats and Deadlifts are meant to work.
Like I said above the Powerlifts are great for building absolute strength. They teach the body to generate as much tension as possible to move against a large level of resistance.
But the split stance snatch isn't meant to work that way. It's more of a speed-strength/explosive strength drill.
Speed strength/Explosive strength is a strength quality in which the athlete attempts to generate as much tension as possible in the fastest time possible. Because of the tremendous amounts of speed involved the athlete is simply unable to generate a true maximum amount of tension. But the tension they can generate is done so very fast.
This is why the world record for the heaviest Clean is nowhere near the record for heaviest Deadlift or Squat.
Movement speed is the key.
I agree that you have to move against heavier weights. Never argued otherwise.
But a squatter or deadlifter will never be able to move a serious load at the same speed as one can move a kettlebell - and that is not their purpose.
Squat
Deadlift - this is a fast deadlift
Snatch
Also, the kettlebell is first and foremost a conditioning tool.
One can use a kettlebell to build speed strength or explosive strength but that would be dependent on the size of the bell.
The kettlebell really comes into its own as a conditioning tool. For other applications (like building speed strength or explosive strength) dumbbells may be a better option. My video was simply an example.
This is another reason I don't classify the split stance snatch as a highly specific drill. It doesn't perfect mimic particular movements.
BUT it does a better job than the squat.
When you think about the direction of force for the Squat is down. You actually control the weight down (as the bar attempts to crush you) into the hole and press back up as you reach the top of the lift. You move against one plane of movement (sagittal).
The Snatch on the other hand is different beast entirely.
To get the bell overhead you first need the initial explosive hip snap/pull to get the bell in motion. As the weight moves overhead your body has to work dynamically to keep you from rotating along the transverse plane or bending along the frontal plane (bending to the side).
You do this to a lesser degree with the Squat, but because the bell is so far removed from the core of the body mass during the split stance snatch the drill becomes more of a stabilization challenge.
To prove my point, ask yourself this:
Why are the record lifts in the Olympic Snatch all with the Squat-Style and not the Split Stance?
(*hint: the Squat style is more stable, thus making it easier to put up heavier weigths. The Split stance presents more of a stabilization issue.)
Like I've been saying all along the lift isn't HIGHLY SPECIFIC it is just MORE specific.
I agree with you here.For fighting id go with the bench press over the standing press, much more movement specific for grapplers and punchers, since although you are laying down the movement pattern is still in the same plane as the press, but that’s just me
I just often find myself without a bench or a partner to hand me a bar. So, I stick mainly with OH presses because I can be consistent with them.
I still do my share of floor presses with a DB but not too much bench pressing.
I don't have a problem with anyone sticking with powerlifting and simply training their sport to build sport specific speed and strength (which is what you indicated you were interested in doing). It's a very valid approach.
My post wasn't meant to belittle a particular lift or training style. Rather the intent was to present a lift that has a lot of benefits and seldom gets any attention.
Train Hard,
Josh Skinner
Last edited by donjitsu2; 07-08-2011 at 12:22 PM.
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