Not everyone is a cage fighter.... so what?

[Ray Pina]

I keep hearing that not everyone is a cage fighter, so such and such technique is not important. That's like saying not all of my friends are college graduates, so I don't need to know how to read. You prepare yourself for the highest level, not the lowest.

A well rounded martial artists should be comfortable at all ranges of striking. Controlling and breaking grips. Take downs. Escapes. Changing levels..... this is basic, core technique.

You can have the best striking in the world. If you don't understand under hooks/over hooks.... the potentials and dangers of each, you are taking a serious risk.

If you're a grappler but haven't learned to appreciate the uppercut, you can get sloppy on your entering.

There is so much to train. And each sub segment are entire arts unto themselves.... that's why it's Mixed Martial Art.... no style answers everything. In your quest for self defense, it's natural to go out and seek alternative solutions. One doesn't just study math or science in school. You need the whole package. And it's a lifetime pursuit.

[KC Elbows]

Most experts are specialists with limited knowledge outside their specialty. That limited knowledge is important, but never comes close to their knowledge of their specialty.

Not disagreeing, just bringing up a relevant point.

[lkfmdc]

If you can block a boxer's hook, you can certainly block a drunk bum's swing

If you can stuff a wrestler's shoot, you can definitely deal with the "street tackle"

PLUS, assuming everyone you will meet on the street has no training is a bad idea. This is 2011, there are TONS of people with at least some training out there

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you can block a boxer's hook, you can certainly block a drunk bum's swing

If you can stuff a wrestler's shoot, you can definitely deal with the "street tackle"

PLUS, assuming everyone you will meet on the street has no training is a bad idea. This is 2011, there are TONS of people with at least some training out there

Well...there is something to be said about the "unorthodox" though.
But on a whole, if you can handle someone that is trained to fight, then someone that isn't should be easier.
Of course there are always exceptions to any rule and one should never underestimate anyone.

[lkfmdc]

Well...there is something to be said about the "unorthodox" though.

sanshou in the 90's was full of unorthodox people (crazies) - a major benefit of competition was learning how to deal with someone whose entire approach was "nuts"

[Eric Olson]

Well...there is something to be said about the "unorthodox" though.
But on a whole, if you can handle someone that is trained to fight, then someone that isn't should be easier.
Of course there are always exceptions to any rule and one should never underestimate anyone.

Aye, and there's the rub of pretty much every discussion and argument on this forum...should one specialize or be a generalist. Kung fu is based around specialization, MMA is based around general skills.

Which is better? Is it better to know a little punching, grappling, kicking, throwing or to be the unparalleled best at one technique or set of techniques?

IMO, people that win at MMA are great grapplers. Boxer are great punchers. Judoka specialize in throws.

Should we try to learn a little bit of each from all of them or be the best in one area?

No easy answers here. At the minimum learning another MA let's you see deficiencies in the art you choose to specialize in. It also depends on whether we are talking about street or competitions with pre-defined rule sets.

EO

[YouKnowWho]

Kung fu is based around specialization, MMA is based around general skills.

Which is better?

I know a guy who is not a good striker. His grappling skill can help him to deflect most of his opponent's punches into underhook, overhook, or head lock. He is also not a good kicker. His grappling skill can also help him to capture most of his opponent's leg. After he had wrapped his opponent's arms or captured his opponent's leg, his grappling skill can take his opponent down from there and his weakness (not a striker) will no longer be an issue.

People may say that a MT guy's roundhouse kick could break your arm. To me, if your opponent breaks your arm but you crack his skull, it will still be a good trade off.

Student: Dear teacher! I need to fight a MT guy but I know nothing about kicks.
teacher: You may not know how to kick but do you know how to take a kick?

[Eric Olson]

BTW, this discussion goes beyond kung fu and into life itself. Is it better to receive a liberal education that exposes you to many ideas about many areas or to do a specialized apprenticeship in a particular area or trade?

Our society says the former is better but it's kind of ridiculous to expect everyone to go to college. And as far as economics I'm sure there's plenty of tradesman out there making way more money than those with fancy degrees.

EO

Aye, and there's the rub of pretty much every discussion and argument on this forum...should one specialize or be a generalist. Kung fu is based around specialization, MMA is based around general skills.

Which is better? Is it better to know a little punching, grappling, kicking, throwing or to be the unparalleled best at one technique or set of techniques?

IMO, people that win at MMA are great grapplers. Boxer are great punchers. Judoka specialize in throws.

Should we try to learn a little bit of each from all of them or be the best in one area?

No easy answers here. At the minimum learning another MA let's you see deficiencies in the art you choose to specialize in. It also depends on whether we are talking about street or competitions with pre-defined rule sets.

EO

[Sardinkahnikov]

PLUS, assuming everyone you will meet on the street has no training is a bad idea. This is 2011, there are TONS of people with at least some training out there

good point. after all, it is likely that someone willing to get into a fight with a stranger has, like, at least a small interest in fighting.

[Ray Pina]

Most experts are specialists with limited knowledge outside their specialty. That limited knowledge is important, but never comes close to their knowledge of their specialty.

I agree with you. And when you are an expert at say throws, you instinctively have figured out how to deal with striking to set up those throws. When you are better at your skill you cancel out the skills of the lesser player.

With that said, there's this Judo black belt who loves to show up to our BJJ class after we all warmed up, drilled ourselves sweat ridden, to throw us around for the free play segment because he's friends with my coach.... he NEVER shows up for boxing or MMA class. Never.... he only wants to play throwing and go home.

In Judo circles he's highly regarding on the island. Competed at the international level when he was younger. Walks around a little ****y.....then there's the fighter circle. When both groups are together he keeps his mouth shut. His black belt and 25 years of training get intimidated by a 20 year old kid with 5 years of MMA training.

Sometimes I don't need to know how to build an entire bike. I just need to know sticking a simple stick between your spokes shuts everything down.

[KC Elbows]

I agree with you. And when you are an expert at say throws, you instinctively have figured out how to deal with striking to set up those throws. When you are better at your skill you cancel out the skills of the lesser player.

With that said, there's this Judo black belt who loves to show up to our BJJ class after we all warmed up, drilled ourselves sweat ridden, to throw us around for the free play segment because he's friends with my coach.... he NEVER shows up for boxing or MMA class. Never.... he only wants to play throwing and go home.

In Judo circles he's highly regarding on the island. Competed at the international level when he was younger. Walks around a little ****y.....then there's the fighter circle. When both groups are together he keeps his mouth shut. His black belt and 25 years of training get intimidated by a 20 year old kid with 5 years of MMA training.

Sometimes I don't need to know how to build an entire bike. I just need to know sticking a simple stick between your spokes shuts everything down.

That's not a limit imposed by his expertise, but by not getting that additional knowledge that, though not expert level, makes his expertise even more relevant. Were he consistent, there's no reason to believe that the only reason he wouldn't go too often with the young bucks is because young bucks have certain attributes, and little caution.

[Ray Pina]

That's not a limit imposed by his expertise, but by not getting that additional knowledge that, though not expert level, makes his expertise even more relevant. Were he consistent, there's no reason to believe that the only reason he wouldn't go too often with the young bucks is because young bucks have certain attributes, and little caution.

I don't really understand everything you're saying here. But to reiterate: he takes pride in throwing lesser belts but NEVER free plays when striking is involved. Not kill each other striking, just run-of-the-mill training sparring.... knowing this guy, I believe his ego won't allow him to "get beat up" in front of everyone. Though I admit I'm projecting.

This is just one example of a situation I encounter pretty often. Sometimes experts become so expert they loose perspective..... being a taiji push hand champ, a grecco roman champ doesn't necessarily equate skill in full unarmed combat. One may have skill in certain attributes -- leading, guiding, take downs, pins, etc, but its what's lacking that keeps them on the sidelines when men strap up and compare.

I read so many threads hear asking for "video proof." If 5 percent of the board members here trained "live" their would be too much footage to go through on a weekly basis.

[KC Elbows]

I don't really understand everything you're saying here. But to reiterate: he takes pride in throwing lesser belts but NEVER free plays when striking is involved. Not kill each other striking, just run-of-the-mill training sparring.... knowing this guy, I believe his ego won't allow him to "get beat up" in front of everyone. Though I admit I'm projecting.

This is just one example of a situation I encounter pretty often. Sometimes experts become so expert they loose perspective..... being a taiji push hand champ, a grecco roman champ doesn't necessarily equate skill in full unarmed combat. One may have skill in certain attributes -- leading, guiding, take downs, pins, etc, but its what's lacking that keeps them on the sidelines when men strap up and compare.

I read so many threads hear asking for "video proof." If 5 percent of the board members here trained "live" their would be too much footage to go through on a weekly basis.

My point was that his problem wasn't expertise, but ego and arrogance. If he trained the basics outside his realm, he probably wouldn't hesitate to train with striking, because he could bring HIS game into the overall game, and his game is well developed.

[pateticorecords]

Not everybody becomes an expert at something to then pursue other things.

If someone is brought in to share his expertise it is most likely that they won't engage in other forms of play/sparring as they are not proficient at it... if they are able or willing to participate in other forms of practice should not take away from the level of expertise that person has in the particular subject.


Example: How many people do you know that play an instrument? Are they all virtuosos? Are they all technical? Are they conservatory material? Do they play more than one instrument or are they master at only one? Or are they doing it for fun? Are they using as a therapeutic avenue?

[lkfmdc]

The current state of the art thinking on knife / blade defense is that you will have to wrestle to survive. The top programs / methods are all grappling / wrestling based. Considering how poor most TMA people's grappling and wrestling is, it is pretty funny to hear them run to the blade as their answer to the MMA approach

truth is a bitch