Not everyone is a cage fighter.... so what?

[Frost]

The days of tape trainers winning at even the local level are I think largely over…. And my point was if you have three schools in your area teaching MMA, one doesn’t compete, two do and one of those always wins its pretty easy to see which is the good school out of those correct?

So how would you judge a school good then? What criteria would you use

[HumbleWCGuy]

The days of tape trainers winning at even the local level are I think largely over…. And my point was if you have three schools in your area teaching MMA, one doesn’t compete, two do and one of those always wins its pretty easy to see which is the good school out of those correct?

So how would you judge a school good then? What criteria would you use

Most mma schools fight at least sometimes. I would focus more on quality rather than quantity. A school that runs a lot of guys to smokers on a consistent basis versus one that produces a few higher quality athletes that win on a higher level? I would rather see the higher level guys. Winning is never a knock on a school nomatter the level, but I don't want to get too crazy about a school that runs a lot of guys to smokers.

[Frost]

Personally if a school only produced 1 or 2 guys that did well I would be suspicious was it down to coaching or simply those people being that good (ie chuck liddel)

If on the other hand the majority of fightesr do well at the local level, and in the other comps they enter I would be happy that the level of coaching was at a good level

I suppose it comes down to what you consider good local events and what you see as smokers

[HumbleWCGuy]

Personally if a school only produced 1 or 2 guys that did well I would be suspicious was it down to coaching or simply those people being that good (ie chuck liddel)

They had some guys who are winning bigger events. Although, I guess that is a valid question to ask. Am I going to get trained for real or am I going to get the shaft because the instructor only cares about his top guy or guys?

If on the other hand the majority of fightesr do well at the local level, and in the other comps they enter I would be happy that the level of coaching was at a good level

I suppose it comes down to what you consider good local events and what you see as smokers

If I were a young person wanting to train, I would be concerned.
1. What is the ceiling of quality that I can acheive here?
2. Am I going to be pressured to fight before I want to?

If I were a fighter, I would want to know if this place can take me to the big time or am I doomed to the smoker circuit?

[wenshu]

My bad, I forgot.

Normal distribution doesn't apply to MMA.

[lkfmdc]

My bad, I forgot.

Normal distribution doesn't apply to MMA.

More people in MMA schools spar and are interested in competition than in TCMA schools

Not hard to understand. Today TCMA appeals to forms collectors and people who think it's a cool form of yoga

50% of my school spars
I've had upwards of 10% of my school in competition/on competition team

Really, isn't hard to see why

[wenshu]

More people in MMA schools spar and are interested in competition than in TCMA schools

Not hard to understand. Today TCMA appeals to forms collectors and people who think it's a cool form of yoga

50% of my school spars
I've had upwards of 10% of my school in competition/on competition team

Really, isn't hard to see why

Sigh.

Be clear, I qualified my original re-purposing of Ray's post with

Not to say that I disagree with your assessment of the connotations of "TCMA" but there is a flip side to that coin.

I actually fall under the form collector/yoga stigma. I also harbor no illusions about the efficacy of air punches; I spar either wrestling or striking on a weekly basis. I love me some ineffective, outdated, watered down cultural relics, I also harbor passion for boxing, kick boxing and scientific training methods. People on both sides who think they have to be mutually exclusive are mouth breathing, knuckle dragging microcephalics.

Weekly sparring under qualified coaches does not preclude mediocrity nor a highly questionable fashion sense. MMA is just as prone to middling performance and asinine behavior as anything else. The narrow parameters of a certain endemic subjective bias apparently dictate that everyone who steps into an MMA gym is going to be in the top ten percent just by virtue of practicing MMA.

This same category of narrow subjective bias is also behind the belief that western boxing/wrestling lacks refinement. People on both sides of this tired argument are operating under the same narrowly defined subjective bias, only with different criteria.

[lkfmdc]

Weekly sparring under qualified coaches does not preclude mediocrity nor a highly questionable fashion sense.

I have no interest in fashion?

But weekly sparring does keep people from thinking they are much better than they are

[wenshu]

I have no interest in fashion?

Well, I guess you could call it fashion. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou9AabR6_1w

But weekly sparring against better, more experienced opponents does keep people from thinking they are much better than they are

Fixed.

[Ray Pina]

So how would you judge a school good then? What criteria would you use

This is the great question and the heart of all the arguments on this message board. It starts with the simple question: What do you want? And then it requires one being honest with themself.

You can tell after checking out a school for 30 mins if its a fighting gym or a form gym. And by form gym I don't necessarily mean they just do forms. I mean they concern themselves more with the form (uniforms, alters, etc.) than the substance. A hard floor, no pads or gloves, etc., is a bad sign. A martial art school without live play is not a martial art school.

A fighting gym doesn't mean all they do is fight either. There's lots of conditioning and drilling and technical training.... I'd avoid a gym that just fought too. I think ideally 1/3 class conditioning/coordination, 1/3 technical training but live with partners, and then 1/3 free play..... something like that.

Essentially there's oriental historical society type schools and there's schools looking to produce physically healthy, technically trained competent martial artists..... one becomes a martial artist when they can express they're training for real. You can chamber a kick countless ways.... it's the why during the certain where and when that makes it an art. And that takes time. And it also takes pressure. Like a diamond.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the great question and the heart of all the arguments on this message board. It starts with the simple question: What do you want? And then it requires one being honest with themself.

You can tell after checking out a school for 30 mins if its a fighting gym or a form gym. And by form gym I don't necessarily mean they just do forms. I mean they concern themselves more with the form (uniforms, alters, etc.) than the substance. A hard floor, no pads or gloves, etc., is a bad sign. A martial art school without live play is not a martial art school.

A fighting gym doesn't mean all they do is fight either. There's lots of conditioning and drilling and technical training.... I'd avoid a gym that just fought too. I think ideally 1/3 class conditioning/coordination, 1/3 technical training but live with partners, and then 1/3 free play..... something like that.

Essentially there's oriental historical society type schools and there's schools looking to produce physically healthy, technically trained competent martial artists..... one becomes a martial artist when they can express they're training for real. You can chamber a kick countless ways.... it's the why during the certain where and when that makes it an art. And that takes time. And it also takes pressure. Like a diamond.

Careful Ray, you are generalizing a bit much.
Most Kyokushin schools have hard floors and no gloves or pads.
Not every school is big enough to afford wall-wall mats.
I visited this one school that was very small, you didn't see any matts, pads or gloves.
BUT the mats were put away and only came out for grappling and everyone had their own gloves and pads and face mask and took them home with them.
They only had live sparring on Friday, the whole class was just sparring and the rest of the time was drills and conditioning and basics with some sparring.

[Lucas]

my first school was hard bound carpet over concrete in triple wide garage, we had matts but we kept them in a closet till it was time to pull them out for throwing and tumbling and such. it was pretty....um....garage style. lol