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Thread: Not everyone is a cage fighter.... so what?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Olson View Post
    Kung fu is based around specialization, MMA is based around general skills.

    Which is better?
    I know a guy who is not a good striker. His grappling skill can help him to deflect most of his opponent's punches into underhook, overhook, or head lock. He is also not a good kicker. His grappling skill can also help him to capture most of his opponent's leg. After he had wrapped his opponent's arms or captured his opponent's leg, his grappling skill can take his opponent down from there and his weakness (not a striker) will no longer be an issue.

    People may say that a MT guy's roundhouse kick could break your arm. To me, if your opponent breaks your arm but you crack his skull, it will still be a good trade off.

    Student: Dear teacher! I need to fight a MT guy but I know nothing about kicks.
    teacher: You may not know how to kick but do you know how to take a kick?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-12-2011 at 10:57 AM.

  2. #32
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    BTW, this discussion goes beyond kung fu and into life itself. Is it better to receive a liberal education that exposes you to many ideas about many areas or to do a specialized apprenticeship in a particular area or trade?

    Our society says the former is better but it's kind of ridiculous to expect everyone to go to college. And as far as economics I'm sure there's plenty of tradesman out there making way more money than those with fancy degrees.

    EO


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Olson View Post
    Aye, and there's the rub of pretty much every discussion and argument on this forum...should one specialize or be a generalist. Kung fu is based around specialization, MMA is based around general skills.

    Which is better? Is it better to know a little punching, grappling, kicking, throwing or to be the unparalleled best at one technique or set of techniques?

    IMO, people that win at MMA are great grapplers. Boxer are great punchers. Judoka specialize in throws.

    Should we try to learn a little bit of each from all of them or be the best in one area?

    No easy answers here. At the minimum learning another MA let's you see deficiencies in the art you choose to specialize in. It also depends on whether we are talking about street or competitions with pre-defined rule sets.

    EO

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
    I keep hearing that not everyone is a cage fighter, so such and such technique is not important. That's like saying not all of my friends are college graduates, so I don't need to know how to read. You prepare yourself for the highest level, not the lowest.

    A well rounded martial artists should be comfortable at all ranges of striking. Controlling and breaking grips. Take downs. Escapes. Changing levels..... this is basic, core technique.

    You can have the best striking in the world. If you don't understand under hooks/over hooks.... the potentials and dangers of each, you are taking a serious risk.

    If you're a grappler but haven't learned to appreciate the uppercut, you can get sloppy on your entering.

    There is so much to train. And each sub segment are entire arts unto themselves.... that's why it's Mixed Martial Art.... no style answers everything. In your quest for self defense, it's natural to go out and seek alternative solutions. One doesn't just study math or science in school. You need the whole package. And it's a lifetime pursuit.
    I have said this a few times. I completely agree. I am not interested in some of the more artsy or esoterical forms of martial arts, but I am so glad that people do them and preserve that body of knowledge. So many times in the last 20 years has MMA declared this or that dead only to see it re-emerge, Striking, high-kicks, jump kicks, spinning techniques, snapping kicks and the list goes on.

    I see a guy like Rashad Evans pulling off elements of monkey kung fu in the ring. If I had a style similar to his. I would love to go to the local monkey guy or order a DVD to see what I could get out of it. Sure the local monkey guy might be a larper, but that doesn't mean that he can't point me in the right direction.

    I think that the biggest issue for people is that they need validation for what they are doing so if someone likes TMA better than MMA then it is a knock on MMA so they seek to convert a TMAist to validate their own view.

    I don't want to sound like I am pointing fingers. There are guys with a lot of different views on this board which is fine. Answering questions based on one's personal perspective is what this board is about. I think that the trolls are hear for the validation, mostly because they can't legitimately fight no matter what path they choose so validation from us is necessary.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 07-12-2011 at 11:06 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    The current state of the art thinking on knife / blade defense is that you will have to wrestle to survive. The top programs / methods are all grappling / wrestling based. Considering how poor most TMA people's grappling and wrestling is, it is pretty funny to hear them run to the blade as their answer to the MMA approach

    truth is a bitch
    The dog brothers are kind of the authority and I don't think that is where they are headed. Some simple grappling can be useful in disarming a night, but I am not sure what anyone empty handed thinks that he or she will do against a skilled knife fighter other than die.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 07-12-2011 at 11:08 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    This brings up a point on why I cross train(ed):
    When I wanted to develop and test a skill to it's max, I always tried to get soem training and competition in that specific skill, so...

    To test my punches I did boxing
    Throws I did Judo
    ground work I did BJJ ( and Judo of course)
    Clinch and takedowns I did wrestling
    Kicks I did TKD
    Bare knuckle I did kyokushin
    KB I did MT
    Sticks and knives I did Kali ( Insanto/Lacoste and Pekiti-Tirsia and even some DBMA).
    Gun work, well, 4 years in the Army handled that.
    Heck I even tried some Sambo !
    Good stuff.

    The point was, if you want to develop AND test a specific skillset, go to who are the experts in that skillset.
    Super impressive list. I'd like to learn more knife material. My master used to tell me pole fighting bet on the old man. Not to bet on knife fighting, that it's too unpredictable.... I can understand that. Up close with a sharp blade. Scary. I really don't have much experience with that.

    On an aside, some Sambo guys come roll with us from time to time. One thing I like about them is they go for leg locks more than BJJ which I like, though admittedly risky to opening oneself up to counter leg locks.... but that kind of goes with this subject. Better to find that out in training. For example, I love to step backwards over halfguard for the knee bar... but only against guys I know don't have a leg lock game.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    It could be that the guy doesn't like to get hit. Heck - I don't like to get hit so I don't play with the strikers too much anymore. And I do like to take advantage of my BJJ brethren who don't understand the finer points of the takedowns that Judo has... Maybe this guy's an old Judoka who likes Judo and finds it refreshing to work out with younger fighting ready BJJers.

    Definitely!.... it's annoying though.

    Every time someone comes to your house they prance around all proud and challenge you to checkers when you really feel like playing chess.

    Soon as the chess board comes out, said disappears without a trace.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pateticorecords View Post

    Example: How many people do you know that play an instrument? Are they all virtuosos? Are they all technical? Are they conservatory material? Do they play more than one instrument or are they master at only one? Or are they doing it for fun? Are they using as a therapeutic avenue?
    Good point.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
    Good point.
    Thanks Ray
    Tom
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    when faced with reality, it is definitely better to have trained, but still only marginally. If you want the advantage, you must have superior weaponry.

    if all you're gonna get into is a fist fight, meh, big effen deal.

    I like how ring guys always think that their gym training will save them

    when are you going to deal with that reality?
    I found it amusing how you tied an upper cut to sport fighting.

    Technique aside. Fighting experience aside.... the physical results of "combat sport" training gives one an edge in power, agility, explosiveness, coordination, endurance, breath control.

    But this was not a sport vs reality or MMA vs Kung Fu thread. It's a thread highlighting the importance of extending beyond your primary training focus, to gain at least a basic understand of all ranges/stages of fighting.

    You are correct. Weapons are natural extension of that.... and just as you sound like you'd take a gun instead of a monk spade to check out the basement when you hear a loud crash in the night.... I'd also want to take a solid knowledge of grip control, throws, sweeps, striking, takedown, ESCAPES, and finishes.

    If you're dedicated to learning and putting in the hours why wouldn't one seek these out? Why would one get defensive about broadening their knowledge? Why wouldn't one seek the best possible training for their time and money?

  10. #40
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    my thoughts.

    don't be stuck in a box. work everything and anything. don't be afraid to go into the unknown. Learn, learn and learn more from everything.

    People get comfortable in there routine and don't want to see the next horizon in most cases. I could honestly care less about what people learn, only what I learn is important. And my "tool bag" is expansive. My first teacher was very adament about going to other places to train and see different "styles". He never once told us not to explore. He pushed for it in most cases.

    So again I state to people don't get comfortable move on and try other things. Best advise I can give all.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76 View Post
    my thoughts.

    don't be stuck in a box. work everything and anything. don't be afraid to go into the unknown. Learn, learn and learn more from everything.

    People get comfortable in there routine and don't want to see the next horizon in most cases. I could honestly care less about what people learn, only what I learn is important. And my "tool bag" is expansive. My first teacher was very adament about going to other places to train and see different "styles". He never once told us not to explore. He pushed for it in most cases.

    So again I state to people don't get comfortable move on and try other things. Best advise I can give all.
    “Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”-Bruce Lee
    Tom
    Integrated Kung Fu Academy
    Kung Fu - Kickboxing - MMA -Self Defense
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
    If you're dedicated to learning and putting in the hours why wouldn't one seek these out? Why would one get defensive about broadening their knowledge? Why wouldn't one seek the best possible training for their time and money?
    i think this is a pondering a lot of people have. im late getting this taken care of for myself, partly because there has been no 'real' pressing need, and life gets in the way sometimes...unfortunately. but im getting serious and uprooting my whole life and mking major changes just so i can get this done. because as a martial artist, it is important.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
    I agree with you. And when you are an expert at say throws, you instinctively have figured out how to deal with striking to set up those throws. When you are better at your skill you cancel out the skills of the lesser player.

    With that said, there's this Judo black belt who loves to show up to our BJJ class after we all warmed up, drilled ourselves sweat ridden, to throw us around for the free play segment because he's friends with my coach.... he NEVER shows up for boxing or MMA class. Never.... he only wants to play throwing and go home.

    In Judo circles he's highly regarding on the island. Competed at the international level when he was younger. Walks around a little ****y.....then there's the fighter circle. When both groups are together he keeps his mouth shut. His black belt and 25 years of training get intimidated by a 20 year old kid with 5 years of MMA training.

    Sometimes I don't need to know how to build an entire bike. I just need to know sticking a simple stick between your spokes shuts everything down.
    He does that because Judo is mostly about throwing people. In compitition it is about 90% while takedown, arm and leg bars represent the last 10%. It is also a sport skill. It comes from Japanese Jiujitsu, which is complete with throws, holds, striking and kicking. It is a complete martial art, unlike the sport versions that are so popular today.
    Jackie Lee

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    The dog brothers are kind of the authority and I don't think that is where they are headed. Some simple grappling can be useful in disarming a night, but I am not sure what anyone empty handed thinks that he or she will do against a skilled knife fighter other than die.
    well karl tanswell survived a gang knife attack (read over 6 people stabbing and attacking him and the hunting him down when he escaped to do it again) and now teaches the STAB knife defence programme based on greco roman wrestling, hes pretty much an authority on the area to (and has the scares to prove it)
    is empty hand the best way to go against a knife, of course not but controlling the limbs and his body is a good idea (hey look its grappling)

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    The dog brothers are kind of the authority and I don't think that is where they are headed.

    That's the thing about "thinking" as opposed to knowing...

    Ever seen "die less often"?
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
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    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

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