Shaolin Zhan Zhaung

[Crosshandz]

Watching this video of Wu Nanfang showcasing a few Zhan Zhaung postures I was struck by the similarity of his pratice and that of the Yiquan school.

I had not been aware that Shaolin trained Zhan Zhuang besides the low MaBu that TV and Movies has made them well renowned for. However, seeing Wu Nanfang's Zhuang Gong it made me curious to know more about Shaolin's standing practices.

How extensive is the Shaolin Zhan Zhuang catalogue? I know that Wang Xiangzhai studied Xinyiba from Shi Henglin. Is there good basis for believing the even step standing methods of Yiquan have their roots in Shaolin Kungfu?

[rett]

A friend of mine who trains Yi Quan asked about the "holding a ball" (or "hugging a tree") posture. Master Wu responded by asking what good is it to hold the arms out like that: no fight application. Of course, particular answers to questions can depend on the situation, who's asking, when, and so on.

They use those stances (they call them "zhuang gong") as basic training before Pan2 Gen1 (twist root). But then there are a lot more exercises where they stand but sway and do repetitive movement. Often these are working on one movement from a form or a Qigong set. Just standing doesn't seem like a big part of the training timewise as far as I've seen.

This doesn't really speak directly to your questions... bit of the puzzle. And I'm just speaking as a Westerner who's viewed things from the outside of course.

[Hendrik]

A friend of mine who trains Yi Quan asked about the "holding a ball" (or "hugging a tree") posture. Master Wu responded by asking what good is it to hold the arms out like that: no fight application. Of course, particular answers to questions can depend on the situation, who's asking, when, and so on.

They use those stances (they call them "zhuang gong") as basic training before Pan2 Gen1 (twist root). But then there are a lot more exercises where they stand but sway and do repetitive movement. Often these are working on one movement from a form or a Qigong set. Just standing doesn't seem like a big part of the training timewise as far as I've seen.

This doesn't really speak directly to your questions... bit of the puzzle. And I'm just speaking as a Westerner who's viewed things from the outside of course.

Interesting, which Master Wu responded that way?

[rett]

@Hendrik, Same as in the video.

You might want to look at standard 5-year curriculum here:

http://www.shaolinwugulun.com/default.aspx?id=14

esp. These two, both standing exercises.

少林桩功的练法（虚实桩）

少林步法的练法（五大步）<--- I believe this is the one in the linked video (I've seen people train these stances with different hand positions as well)

After this its mostly open handed forms, qigong and weapons.

and of course, several years later maybe

少林心意把桩功的学习和研究 (I can dream can't I?)

(but who knows what might not be mentioned on the website of course)

[Hendrik]

@Hendrik, Same as in the video.

You might want to look at standard 5-year curriculum here:

http://www.shaolinwugulun.com/default.aspx?id=14

esp. These two, both standing exercises.

少林桩功的练法（虚实桩）

少林步法的练法（五大步）<--- I believe this is the one in the linked video (I've seen people train these stances with different hand positions as well)

After this its mostly open handed forms, qigong and weapons.

and of course, several years later maybe

少林心意把桩功的学习和研究 (I can dream can't I?)

(but who knows what might not be mentioned on the website of course)

Thanks!

心意把 is not something everyone can train in. it is not the usual shao lin stuffs. it is a life long internal art journey.

They can show you the external shape or posture, but as soon as they dont show you the 心法, 气法, one will get no where.


The following is the truth which most people dont like to know and face.

近年亦有人宣称会心意把，实乃吴山林当年在少林传艺时教的几个简单功架。心意把乃历代单传之功法，练心意把 必须终生独身、素食，要言传身授，苦练十年以上的少林基本功方可学习。试想若无明师悉心指点、无多年苦修浸 淫，把从何来？若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则血浮气躁、气息难调，何谈心意？此亦少林禅功有别 于其它功夫之一处。世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈 武？所谓禅拳、禅武一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

[rett]

re: truth hard to face (thank you google translate)

Wu Gulun and Wu Shanlin were masters of xinyiba skill and they were householders with wife and children. So for this reason I believe that 100% celibacy is good for monks, but for a householder it's sufficient to be moderate with sex to maintain good qi. Don't overdo it but you don't have to give it up either.

[rett]

They can show you the external shape or posture, but as soon as they dont show you the 心法, 气法, one will get no where.

Heart to heart.

[rett]

Live with people and they don't have to show.

[Hendrik]

re: truth hard to face (thank you google translate)

Wu Gulun and Wu Shanlin were masters of xinyiba skill and they were householders with wife and children. So for this reason I believe that 100% celibacy is good for monks, but for a householder it's sufficient to be moderate with sex to maintain good qi. Don't overdo it but you don't have to give it up either.

The problem is the qi flow of cultivation is reverse the qi flow of sex. so, if one has sex and go train Qigong, the Qi will go the path of sex because that is how it is habitually use to. abd one will have difficulty make the correction of path way. and thus, everytime when the Qi accumulate a little, sex desire raise up and drain it.


and
after one had cultivate, for example, the qi flow of Xio Zhou Tien, or small cosmic cycle. if one has sex, that is breaking the flow and drain it out.

So, that is the delima. do you want to break your own kung fu? Not to mention the sensation of sex is so sharp that is it spikingly shock the shen, similar to drop a mountain into a quiet lake.


So, training and sex is a dilemma. and thus, those who train it will take Sex as only Baby making mission. if one take more then that and enjoy it that means one has already damage the shen and the Qi flow cultivation.

[rett]

Chan teacher Shan Yang has said that laypeople can become enlightened. So compared to that possibility, having a "bullet in my gun" seems less important.

I believe if we aim to live naturally and with moderation then we are doing okay. Even qi cultivation can probably go to unnatural extremes.

Advanced and detailed qi circulation techniques sounds about as great as being pac-man world champion, to be honest. Taking it a bit too far.

My approach is practice within the possibilities of my life, do neigong, let it grow naturally without trying to push things.

I don't believe either that just because you have sex that your qi only circulates in a sexual way. If that were so all our brains would have died years ago. (Well maybe they did...)

[Hendrik]

Chan teacher Shan Yang has said that laypeople can become enlightened. So compared to that possibility, having a "bullet in my gun" seems less important.

Forget about Chan.



Chan is extremely advance compare with Qi cultivation which is the core of advance TCMA or "bullet in your gun".

Chan is 100000 million miles away. not to put down anyone but 99% of the people doesnt know and doesnt practice Chan. Be it Monk or laypeople in China.

the following video is also not accurate on Chan although it could be a good start point.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinw.../1/fnNS8xea5LQ

I believe if we aim to live naturally and with moderation then we are doing okay. Even qi cultivation can probably go to unnatural extremes.

our believe is based on our mind and our mind is not reliable most of the time. our mind is just our habit. thus,
moderation is a flaky term.

Advanced and detailed qi circulation techniques sounds about as great as being pac-man world champion, to be honest. Taking it a bit too far.

if you dont have it you dont enter the door of advance TCMA. that is the consequence.

My approach is practice within the possibilities of my life, do neigong, let it grow naturally without trying to push things.

you are entitle to your approach. that is ok.

However, when we talk about Neigong, then there has to be following the rule of natural. and often it is not that things are push, but we cant hold the practice because of our habit. and if the habit is not changes there is no hope for any attainment.



为何君视而不见 规矩定方圆

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVZC...layer_embedded


westerners and the new generation Chinese are very against 规矩定方圆 due to the westernize culture.

I don't believe either that just because you have sex that your qi only circulates in a sexual way. If that were so all our brains would have died years ago. (Well maybe they did...)

1, because you have not practiced Qigong. and also, because you are healthy.

for those who have practice Qigong for advance Chinese martial art or curing sickness. they know.


2, you mention about Chan above, if I pull the Shurangama sutra which is the guide of the Chan practice that is even more demanding.

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhis...526.screen.pdf





See, my intention to post above is simply,

if we are talking internal cultivation then there are certain non negotiable direction and rules one got to follow, otherwise, one really cant get any progress and end up go no where.

and

I am ok with whatever everyone wants to believe and do because we are just human. however, again, when we speak of Neigong practice then we cannot write off the true teaching because we dont or cannot afford to practice according to the teaching or 规矩定方圆.

we must be clear on what we do. we could choose to not practice but we dont put down the teaching because our own issue. that way we dont mislead ourselve and others even if we dont practice.


Finally, you ask me how to Sink Qi into Dan Tian, that is not difficult at all. however, the consequence is if you could sink qi into dan tian and then have sex, you will drain yourself big time. that is suicidal. so it is better to not know how to sink qi into dan tian so you dont drain your body as much.

but to those who is sick and not as healthy or aging, as soon as you make a decision to distance sex and practice Qigong, your health is surely will improve. but not sex or very little sex even after you are heal. you re wire the flow of the energy to rebuild your body. that is the idea.

[Royal Dragon]

The problem is the qi flow of cultivation is reverse the qi flow of sex. so, if one has sex and go train Qigong, the Qi will go the path of sex because that is how it is habitually use to. abd one will have difficulty make the correction of path way. and thus, everytime when the Qi accumulate a little, sex desire raise up and drain it.


and
after one had cultivate, for example, the qi flow of Xio Zhou Tien, or small cosmic cycle. if one has sex, that is breaking the flow and drain it out.

So, that is the delima. do you want to break your own kung fu? Not to mention the sensation of sex is so sharp that is it spikingly shock the shen, similar to drop a mountain into a quiet lake.


So, training and sex is a dilemma. and thus, those who train it will take Sex as only Baby making mission. if one take more then that and enjoy it that means one has already damage the shen and the Qi flow cultivation.

I have never understood the whole "Avoidance of sex" thing. I do BETTER after. It relives an excess of pressure. How can it be bad, if it makes you stronger, and perform better?

Is this an issue unique to Asian peoples? I grew up in an Italian nieghborhood. We viewed sex as a necessary activity to keep us at our peek.

[rett]

How extensive is the Shaolin Zhan Zhuang catalogue?

I thought of this webpage in connection with your question:

http://www.chanwuyi.org/showroom/mod...09311062457253

Hope it's of interest!

[Hendrik]

I have never understood the whole "Avoidance of sex" thing. I do BETTER after. It relives an excess of pressure. How can it be bad, if it makes you stronger, and perform better?

Is this an issue unique to Asian peoples? I grew up in an Italian nieghborhood. We viewed sex as a necessary activity to keep us at our peek.

It is universal.

The issue here is the art of Neigong is actually re wiring the circuit of the human. and sex needs to be handle in this rewiring new circuit.

without that rewiring, there is not much benifit, or even pull the reverse gear ,from the Neigong practice. that is certain.



This is not open up for most in general because there is not many who really practice Neigong.


When one enter the training of Zhuang Gong, disregards of any style, if the sex issue is not address that means the Qi issue cannot be solved. and thus, one dont really practice anything rather then some posture mimic-ing. thus, that is like a gun without bullets.

[Crosshandz]

Thanks for all the enlightening responses. Rett I especially. appreciated that little looksee at Dejian's practices.