Shaolin Zhan Zhaung

[LFJ]

This is what happens when religion and culture gets mixed up with martial arts training. People fabricate very intricate ways of promoting their religious and/or cultural beliefs and ideals in those who wish to learn their art, requiring certain diets or lifestyles.

The problem is it's not supported by any factual evidence, but people follow and believe without real justification, although convincing themselves they in fact have.

Most religions set themselves up in a way where they make the follower believe they need the religion. They make followers believe they have some defect, and set the religion up as the cure.

[YouKnowWho]

I have never understood the whole "Avoidance of sex" thing. I do BETTER after. It relives an excess of pressure. How can it be bad, if it makes you stronger, and perform better?

Is this an issue unique to Asian peoples? I grew up in an Italian nieghborhood. We viewed sex as a necessary activity to keep us at our peek.

If you train and have sex at the same time, in Chinese, it's called "花練(Hua Lian)". You will never be able to become the best of the best. When you were young, your TCMA teacher will force you to sleep with a rope around your head and legs (or sleep in a round tub). This way, you cannot straight your legs when you sleep.

If you have to wrestle 20 rounds after your sex, you will feel your weakness after sex. I also have never heard any Marathon runner who has sex the day before the competation.

[rett]

This is what happens when religion and culture gets mixed up with martial arts training. People fabricate very intricate ways of promoting their religious and/or cultural beliefs and ideals in those who wish to learn their art, requiring certain diets or lifestyles.

I feel just as much if not more pressure from the unreflecting mainstream culture to eat and live a certain way. Pizza and hamburgers for example, hard drinking on the weekend. Hard to hang out with people if you don't share their basic enjoyments. So there's definitely a social pressure to conform. So you could call ordinary life a kind of religion/culture in the broad sense you speak of above. (A religion/culture where the priests are big for-profit corporations and the preaching is television advertisements)

Since I started eating Buddhist vegetarian 90% of the time, plus meat or whatever is served when invited to dinner by friends/family and the like, I feel better and I've dropped 8 kilos of fat. That's an empirical benefit IMO.

On the website I mentioned above, the recommendation is for normal people to allow themslves meat and so on in appropriate amounts. The foundation is vegetarian, but it's not totalitarian. And it definitely doesn't say you're a bad or inadequate person if you don't join.

[rett]

If you have to wrestle 20 rounds after your sex, you will feel your weakness after sex. I also have never heard any Marathon runner who has sex the day before the competation.

I agree with this. But do you think this means it's necessary to be 100% celibate? Or just to be moderate about it, just like it's a good idea to be moderate about rich food.

OR suppose you have to wrestle after doing hard interval training. You'll feel your weakness. Does that make hard interval training harmful on the whole?

[LFJ]

Since I started eating Buddhist vegetarian 90% of the time, plus meat or whatever is served when invited to dinner by friends/family and the like, I feel better and I've dropped 8 kilos of fat. That's an empirical benefit IMO.

On the website I mentioned above, the recommendation is for normal people to allow themslves meat and so on in appropriate amounts. The foundation is vegetarian, but it's not totalitarian. And it definitely doesn't say you're a bad or inadequate person if you don't join.

Actually, I'm not denying any benefits of vegetarianism, or even celibacy. I have been on the diet for many years myself. But I'm not going to make up elaborate reasons why it is necessary for your Qigong or martial arts practice- especially reasons that are not at all supported by factual evidence, but that we just say and expect you to accept.

This is from the Shaolin Wu Gulun website:
http://www.shaolinwugulun.org/view.asp?id=6

...This in turn allows the consciousness of the practioners to rise higher and eventually reach a state of enlightenment.

An enlightened being has total awareness of his own self, his body and his environment. If the enlightened person is also a gongfu practitioner he will be aware of fear and danger before ever seeing or knowing the source of those feelings. His reactions to danger, whether in training or in real combat, will be much faster – essential for the mastering of high level gongfu skills.

Vegetarianism is a vital element in the reaching of this state of awareness.

...Vegetarianism is essential for those who are serious about mastering the highest levels of gongfu.

It makes the claim that you must be vegetarian to reach enlightenment. It is a "vital element" in reaching that state.

It also makes the claim that vegetarianism is a must for reaching the highest levels of gongfu. It is "essential" for series students.



While I support the vegetarian diet, and agree with the reasons to adopt it as they are actually taught in the Buddhist sūtras (not because it is prerequisite for enlightenment), I will say what is written in this article is dishonest religious propagation.

As for enlightenment, it is not taught in Buddhist teachings that vegetarianism is vital for reaching that state.

As for gongfu, it really depends on their definition of "highest level". Perhaps it is being a "vegetarian gongfu practitioner" that is the highest level in their view.

In my view, it's a dishonest way to promote vegetarianism or teach gongfu.

[rett]

It makes the claim that you must be vegetarian to reach enlightenment. It is a "vital element" in reaching that state.

I see your point. Those opinions about meat-eating are standard Mahayana Buddhism. Maybe the sutras don't make that exact claim but I beleive it's widespread belief. To me, Mahayana is such a force for good in the world that I mostly try to learn from it rather than find fault. It's not like joining a Jim Jones Koolaid cult

But I would probably also choose to respectfully (and probably silently) disagree on that point with reference to the Buddha and his monks who ate whatever fell into their begging bowls. The only restriction was that they mustn't eat meat that they have reason to believe was specifically slaughtered for their sake.

But if I'm living and training with people for a time I don't mind following their lifestyle and diet as much as I can with as little complaining as possible. As a born whiner I have a lot to learn from this.

In my view, it's a dishonest way to promote vegetarianism or teach gongfu.

Well it's not exactly like they are aggressively recruiting. It's nearly impossible to become a disciple of Shi Dejian.

Another thing is that I believe this website was put together by a lay follower who makes some other statements about Buddhism that I believe are doctrinally incorrect (like about a permanent self).

Certain chapters on the website and in the book are maybe more like a conversation with a fellow practitioner and person on the journey. Maybe you dont' agree about everything, maybe the teacher would not agree with everything, but the most important thing is finding the right heart. I get a very good feeling from the heart of this school, and from the pictures of the past grandmasters such as Ven. Master Xingxing.

There are so many opinions and views. Is there any gongfu school that is completely free from them?

[rett]

How extensive is the Shaolin Zhan Zhuang catalogue? I know that Wang Xiangzhai studied Xinyiba from Shi Henglin. Is there good basis for believing the even step standing methods of Yiquan have their roots in Shaolin Kungfu?

Here's another video which I've been looking for the last couple of days and just found.

In the first 30 seconds you see three different stances. Interesting is that he lifts the heels in the low ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukS_jN-FS2I

And here you have stone posts, but it's not still standing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KL3HPjWpJs

[Crosshandz]

Here's another video which I've been looking for the last couple of days and just found.

In the first 30 seconds you see three different stances. Interesting is that he lifts the heels in the low ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukS_jN-FS2I

And here you have stone posts, but it's not still standing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KL3HPjWpJs

Awesome. In the last one not only lifting the heels but turning out the palms too like Yao Cheng Guang is doing here:



Very interesting and much more than was hinted at by the little writeup on chanwuyi.org particularly when you factor in the heels off the ground stuff which I know Wang Shujin's standing practices included (Wang Shujin also, of course, having studied Yiquan Zhan Zhuang from Wang Xiangzhai). Seeing Shi De Jian displaying that only strengthens my inclination to believe that Wang Xiangzhai's studies under Shi Henglin must have given Wang the basis for his even step standing methods. Makes me wonder how much more of Shaolin Zhan Zhuang there is beyond what is publicly displayed..?

[YouKnowWho]

do you think this means it's necessary to be 100% celibate?

It depends on whether tournament winning record is important to you or not. I had forced myself not to have any sex for 2 years. It was not easy at all.

[Hendrik]

If you train and have sex at the same time, in Chinese, it's called "花練(Hua Lian)". You will never be able to become the best of the best. When you were young, your TCMA teacher will force you to sleep with a rope around your head and legs (or sleep in a round tub). This way, you cannot straight your legs when you sleep.

.

that is the way of authentic training in Kung Fu and non negotiable for those who really want good kung fu.

[Hendrik]

It depends on whether tournament winning record is important to you or not. I had forced myself not to have any sex for 2 years. It was not easy at all.

Great indeed.

[Hendrik]

Awesome. In the last one not only lifting the heels but turning out the palms too like Yao Cheng Guang is doing here:



Very interesting and much more than was hinted at by the little writeup on chanwuyi.org particularly when you factor in the heels off the ground stuff which I know Wang Shujin's standing practices included (Wang Shujin also, of course, having studied Yiquan Zhan Zhuang from Wang Xiangzhai).

Seeing Shi De Jian displaying that only strengthens my inclination to believe that Wang Xiangzhai's studies under Shi Henglin must have given Wang the basis for his even step standing methods.

Makes me wonder how much more of Shaolin Zhan Zhuang there is beyond what is publicly displayed..?

Yiquan's standing post is based on Xing Yi's Zhan Zhuang. Certainly Wang evolve his yiquan later but the core still Xing Yi.



故后人有内家拳之称。李先生传郭云深、刘奇兰、车毅斋、宋氏德、张林德、宋世荣、白西园等数十 人。郭云深传 刘纬祥先生。我幼年；老师张占魁先生，站桩未下功夫。30年从刘先生后，与同学谢一飞、刘书琴 等较技辄败北 。先生笑曰：练拳不站桩，吃饭没有仓，三劈不如一站，站桩是形意拳的基本功，你要从头学起。从 此，我才下功 夫练站桩。

秦重三编《气功疗法》中的三合式，工芗斋编的《大成拳》都脱胎于此......


in Zhan Zhuang, a little off is a thousand miles off. So, unless once got the full instruction looking at the posture one really doesnt know much of it.

[Crosshandz]

Yiquan's standing post is based on Xing Yi's Zhan Zhuang. Certainly Wang evolve his yiquan later but the core still Xing Yi.



故后人有内家拳之称。李先生传郭云深、刘奇兰、车毅斋、宋氏德、张林德、宋世荣、白西园等数十 人。郭云深传 刘纬祥先生。我幼年；老师张占魁先生，站桩未下功夫。30年从刘先生后，与同学谢一飞、刘书琴 等较技辄败北 。先生笑曰：练拳不站桩，吃饭没有仓，三劈不如一站，站桩是形意拳的基本功，你要从头学起。从 此，我才下功 夫练站桩。

秦重三编《气功疗法》中的三合式，工芗斋编的《大成拳》都脱胎于此......


in Zhan Zhuang, a little off is a thousand miles off. So, unless once got the full instruction looking at the posture one really doesnt know much of it.

Fortunately one of Master Yao's disciples taught me Yiquan Zhan Zhuang before I started learning Shaolin Kungfu. I continue to practice the methods together with the visualisations to benefit my Shaolin.

Whilst I recognise the non even step postures as broadly being familiar to what I have heard (admittedly never witnessed) Xingyi people do I have not heard any tradition of Xingyi people doing even step Zhan Zhuang. Moreoever, the variants in hand positioning used in even step Zhan Zhuang that I was taught I have not heard being employed in Xingyiquan either. If it can be demonstrated that they existed/exist in Xingyi fair enough but if they are I've never encountered it.

Increasingly I am convinced that these methods or at least their root was taught to Wang Xiangzhai in the early 1920s when he was studying Xinyiba from Shi Henglin.

[Hendrik]

Fortunately one of Master Yao's disciples taught me Yiquan Zhan Zhuang before I started learning Shaolin Kungfu. I continue to practice the methods together with the visualisations to benefit my Shaolin.

Whilst I recognise the non even step postures as broadly being familiar to what I have heard (admittedly never witnessed) Xingyi people do I have not heard any tradition of Xingyi people doing even step Zhan Zhuang.

Moreoever, the variants in hand positioning used in even step Zhan Zhuang that I was taught I have not heard being employed in Xingyiquan either. If it can be demonstrated that they existed/exist in Xingyi fair enough but if they are I've never encountered it.

Increasingly I am convinced that these methods or at least their root was taught to Wang Xiangzhai in the early 1920s when he was studying Xinyiba from Shi Henglin.

I dont understand your comparison and how your Yiquan benift your Shao lin. and your conclusion on Wang Xiangzhai.

What is an even step Zhan Zhuang? What is an non even step Zhan Zhuang?



I would love to understand your view.

[YouKnowWho]

Great indeed.

I'm glad the we finally have something that we both agree with. I still remember that my girl wanted to have sex but I turned her down and she was so mad at me. Sometime the girls just won't know that sex is not the only thing that men want the most in their lifetime. If I have to live my life all over again, I'll do the same thing without any regret.

When I mentioned the words "花練(Hua Lian)", most people didn't even know what I was talking about. My teacher told me the following story.

Oneday my teacher used a soap that smell good to take a bath. When he passed by his teacher, his teacher stopped him and gave a slap on his face. his teacher thought that he just had sex with some girl. The TCMA training do require some sacrifice.