Shaolin Zhan Zhaung

[Hendrik]

I'm glad the we finally have something that we both agree with.

I still remember that my girl wanted to have sex but I turned her down and she was so mad at me. Sometime the girls just won't know that sex is not the only thing that men want the most in their lifetime.

There are common practice be it we call Qi or not that we are practicing. So, there are lots of things we both will agree because we both practice them.


How can one be good in Kung fu if one not even willing and cannot control one's sex life? it cant.

for me,
if one cannot 'eating bitter" I now a day dont even bother to show them the true practice. that is because kung fu is not taking Opium and have high. Kung fu is work to the point that confident and certainty become a nature. weak will people cant have good kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

This is one of my favor jokes.

A TV reporter tries to interview 3 100 years old men to find out their secret of long life.

- The 1st old man said, "I don't smoke and I don't drink."
- The 2nd old man said, "I don't eat junk food and I exercise."
- The 3rd old man said, "I smoke, drink, eat junk food, don't exercise, but my wife is ugly".

[LFJ]

I see your point. Those opinions about meat-eating are standard Mahayana Buddhism. Maybe the sutras don't make that exact claim but I beleive it's widespread belief. To me, Mahayana is such a force for good in the world that I mostly try to learn from it rather than find fault. It's not like joining a Jim Jones Koolaid cult

It is not standard Mahāyāna Buddhism if the Sūtras don't make that claim.

I am therefore not finding fault in the Mahāyāna teachings, but pointing out where some fanatics are claiming false teachings to promote their ideals.

But if I'm living and training with people for a time I don't mind following their lifestyle and diet as much as I can with as little complaining as possible.

Sure, if that is their culture... but my beef () is with the dishonest way of forcing vegetarianism- by claiming it is vital for enlightenment, and essential for the highest levels of gongfu.

It's simply dishonest. A better way would be to say they prefer followers in their school adopt vegetarianism, or simply say that is a requirement they have chosen to set in their school.

They might then explain some of the reasons the diet is beneficial in practice. It is completely dishonest to tell someone it is necessary for series practitioners to reach enlightenment or high levels of gongfu.

Well it's not exactly like they are aggressively recruiting. It's nearly impossible to become a disciple of Shi Dejian.

Another thing is that I believe this website was put together by a lay follower who makes some other statements about Buddhism that I believe are doctrinally incorrect (like about a permanent self).

Right, I wasn't talking about Shi Dejian or Wu Nanfang personally, unless they support what is written on their English sites. I'm not sure who wrote the article.

I get a very good feeling from the heart of this school, and from the pictures of the past grandmasters such as Ven. Master Xingxing.

There are so many opinions and views. Is there any gongfu school that is completely free from them?

I think the school offers great training, I only disagree with the dishonest way of forcing vegetarianism (and also celibacy in regards to Qigong). When talking about Qigong, they make up all sorts of elaborate and unverifiable reasons for both vegetarianism and celibacy. They just expect you to believe what they say without evidence because they understand Qigong and you don't. In China you never question the teacher.

[Hendrik]

It is not standard Mahāyāna Buddhism if the Sūtras don't make that claim.

1. Shurangama sutra make is extremely clear. No meat in serious practice meditator not even have to be a Buddhist. anyone goes internal No meat.

2, Vegeterian food is needed to handle mind and Qi smoothly instead of getting into trouble in the practice of internal art.

3, there is nothing to do with culture but human body and chemistry.


4, no one forcing anyone, one want to walk the path of kung fu then one needs to follow the law of natural.

It's simply dishonest. A better way would be to say they prefer followers in their school adopt vegetarianism, or simply say that is a requirement they have chosen to set in their school.

dishonest?

the rule is set up to avoid one get into trouble in the practice. if one cant follow the rule one better not practice. otherwise, it is suicide.

They might then explain some of the reasons the diet is beneficial in practice. It is completely dishonest to tell someone it is necessary for series practitioners to reach enlightenment or high levels of gongfu.

Again, for thousand of year, all serious advance Chan practioners in China follow Shurangama sutra's teaching. no exception.

I think the school offers great training, I only disagree with the dishonest way of forcing vegetarianism (and also celibacy in regards to Qigong).

When talking about Qigong, they make up all sorts of elaborate and unverifiable reasons for both vegetarianism and celibacy.

They just expect you to believe what they say without evidence because they understand Qigong and you don't.

In China you never question the teacher.

You want to practice Qigong, Neigong, Zhan Zhuang, Zhuang Gong, sitting meditation, YiJiJing, XiShuijing.....etc?

you take meat and onion,
you cant control your emotion, particulary sex, anger, hate, depression, and over thinking.

how can you get any kung fu with all the disruptive emotion and chemistry in your body? you will end up wasting time keep fighting your emotion and run away body.


so what is so great to keep complaining others is dishonest and not find out the facts ?

serious Kung fu training is not the Holiwood movie making. either one follow the instruction or one dont practice. There is a consequence and responsibility on every action taken.

[Hendrik]

The following has very clearly state on the issues on true Shao lin Kung Fu. Someone who is good in Chinese and English might want to translate it and share it with everyone here.


心意把乃历代单传之功法，
练心意把必须终生独,、素食，要言传身授，苦练十年以上的少林基本功方可学习。

试想若无明师悉心指点、无多年苦修浸淫，把从何来？若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则 血浮气躁、气 息难调，何谈心意？

此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所 谓禅拳、禅武 一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

[LFJ]

1. Shurangama sutra make is extremely clear.

Nowhere in the Śūraṅgama Sūtra does it state that vegetarianism is a vital factor for reaching enlightenment.

It does speak of avoiding meat in those who need training to develop compassion, but this has more to do with mindfulness of other beings' suffering. It is not about some mystical link between diet and spiritual attainment.

Nowhere does it say that one cannot reach enlightenment if they eat meat.

2, Vegeterian food is needed to handle mind and Qi smoothly instead of getting into trouble in the practice of internal art.

3, there is nothing to do with culture but human body and chemistry.

Unless you have factual evidence in support of this, it is just an empty claim. Expecting people to accept it without proof is irrational and dishonest.

Again, for thousand of year, all serious advance Chan practioners in China follow Shurangama sutra's teaching. no exception.

Sure. This is one of the main lengthy Sūtras we study in the Chán school. I also accepted its teachings upon a detailed study and investigation of it. Also I have been on a vegetarian diet for many years. So I am not against it at all.

It is a huge leap however, to make the claims that are in the article at the Shaolin Wu Gulun website- that vegetarianism is necessary for enlightenment and high level martial arts. That is just pushing their ideals. There are far better and more practical reasons to promote vegetarianism.

so what is so great to keep complaining others is dishonest and not find out the facts ?

What is dishonest is expecting people to accept claims without factual evidence to support it, while regarding those claims as facts, rather than theories.

either one follow the instruction or one dont practice.

Just like I said, in China you don't question the teacher or the instruction. That's part of the problem. That's why there are still people who believe Qigong is so mysterious.

[LFJ]

外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

Yet they can make unfounded claims and expect people to accept it as fact.

[Hendrik]

Nowhere in the Śūraṅgama Sūtra does it state that vegetarianism is a vital factor for reaching enlightenment. .....

Nowhere does it say that one cannot reach enlightenment if they eat meat.

From the Shurangama sutra -----




You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas.

When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death.

They are not disciples
of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in
a never-ending cycle.

How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?


“Bodhisattvas and bhikshus who practice purity will not
even step on grass in the pathway; even less will they pull it up
with their hand.

How can one with great compassion pick up
the flesh and blood of living beings and proceed to eat his fill?




http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhis...526.screen.pdf

[Hendrik]

it is a huge leap however, to make the claims that are in the article at the shaolin wu gulun website- that vegetarianism is necessary for enlightenment and high level martial arts.



What is dishonest is expecting people to accept claims without factual evidence to support it, while regarding those claims as facts, rather than theories.


.

Factual evidence? this is factual evidence



心意把乃历代单传之功法，
练心意把必须终生独,、素食，

若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则 血浮气躁、气 息难调，何谈心意？

[YouKnowWho]

2, Vegeterian food is needed to handle ...

Here is another thing that we both agree. I have been a vegeterian for over 30 years. I can see my benefit that I don't have:

- high blood pressure,
- diabetes,
- high cholesterol,
- fat belly,

That's good enough reason for me. I don't expect others to become vegeterian like me. It's their body and they can do whatever that they want.

[LFJ]

Hendrik-

If you are going to quote the Śūraṅgama Sūtra be sure to include the full context. What you quoted was the end of a paragraph. The section is talking about ceasing the act of killing and thoughts of killing. Mind you, meat eating is not killing nor does it carry the karma of killing.

To train followers to cease killing and thoughts of killing, vegetarianism is prescribed. This still does not make the claim that enlightenment cannot be reached if you eat meat. It is a teaching primarily about mental training, not diet.

After all "一切唯心造".

Factual evidence? this is factual evidence

心意把乃历代单传之功法，
练心意把必须终生独,、素食，

若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则 血浮气躁、气 息难调，何谈心意？

No. That is an example of an unfounded claim. Are you unsure what facts and evidence are?

[Crosshandz]

I dont understand your comparison and how your Yiquan benift your Shao lin. and your conclusion on Wang Xiangzhai.

What is an even step Zhan Zhuang? What is an non even step Zhan Zhuang?



I would love to understand your view.

The Yiquan curriculum seperates the Zhan Zhuang into different categories.

1) Ping Bu (which I've been calling even step, even stance would be more accurate I apologise)
2)Zuo Shi (which are sitting postures)
3) Wo Shi (which are lying down postures)
4) Ding Ba Bu (Fixed stance postures)

From my admittedly very small knowledge of Xingyiquan I have heard its practioners using similar methods to Yiquan's Ding Ba Bu. Anyone could see the similarity between Yao ZongXun's Hunyuan Zhuang and San Ti Shi:





There are several other postures in Yiquan's curriculum too that I have heard are very similar to what exist in Xingyiquan such as taming the tiger and dragon descends which, I have heard, are designed to help the practioner achieve dragon body etc.

However the other postures I haven't heard being used in Xingyiquan which has always made me curious as to where they come from. Wang Xiangzhai said he went to Shaolin temple in the early 20s and learned Xinyiba from Abbot Henglin as he wanted to deepen his knowlege of Xingyi and Shaolin temple was its source according to him (a claim that many modern martial arts historians appear to be embracing).

My guess is that these other postures that are a core element of the Yiquan system and which, to my limited knowledge, do not appear in the Xingyiquan were the result of Wang's studies at Shaolin. The videos of Shi DeJian's standing post exercise and the similar hand positioning may indicate that Wang was taught the principles at Shaolin and then went off and expanded it on his own or perhaps that Shaolin's Zhaung gong training is more extensive than Yiquan's and that much remains hidden.

For me Zhan Zhuang is the core of Chinese Martial arts so practicing it is essential to my development in Shaolin Kungfu. My personal experience has been that Zhan Zhuang practice has helped me not fall over when I try to rapidly turn from ma bu into gong bu to punch for instance and there are many other benefits besides that such as being able to move from relaxation to tension back to relaxation when striking. There are, of course, lots of other benefits but relating them directly to Shaolin Kung fu sensitivity, balance, utilisation of energy, timing, clear-mindedness would be the main ones that I have personally experienced.

I have seen Zhan Zhuang practiced in different ways sometimes people look like they are in agony. I was not taught Zhan Zhuang in this manner. I'm not saying that sort of training is wrong but mainly in Zhan Zhuang if I have felt any discomfort it has been in the opening of the kua/hip whatever you want to call it and that was not unbearable searing pain more like the waking up of an old man who hasn't stretched his legs for awhile. Because of how key that area is to Shaolin Kung fu, in my personal understanding (which may indeed be wrong), I have felt Zhan Zhuang has been essential to improving my ability to transfer power from the ground through my body but that's sort of moving away from the point.

[rett]

It depends on whether tournament winning record is important to you or not.

Not in the slightest, to be honest

[rett]

@Crosshandz

When you wrote even step / non-even step I thought you were referring to the weight distribution, or to standing in ma bu (any width) vs. standing with one leg forward as in san ti si for example.

Did I get that wrong? (the fourfold classification seems to make distinctions that go in another direction, unless I'm missing something which is likely)

[Hendrik]

If you are going to quote the Śūraṅgama Sūtra be sure to include the full context.

I have post the link to the full sutra under the quote anyone who is interested could read for themselve.

The bottom line is No meat to keep one clean in mind and body.

What you quoted was the end of a paragraph. The section is talking about ceasing the act of killing and thoughts of killing.

Mind you, meat eating is not killing nor does it carry the karma of killing.

you have just violate the teaching of Shurangama sutra and sound like those who is in demonic state which Shurangama sutra describe.

I hope you go read the full sutra.

To train followers to cease killing and thoughts of killing, vegetarianism is prescribed.

This still does not make the claim that enlightenment cannot be reached if you eat meat.

It is a teaching primarily about mental training, not diet

After all "一切唯心造".

Shurangama is a teaching of body, mind, soul.


The Shurangama sutra clearly state the following which I have post in my previous post.

You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas.

When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death.

They are not disciples
of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in
a never-ending cycle.

How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?



your

After all "一切唯心造" is just an empty talk with mislead yourself and others.

No. That is an example of an unfounded claim. Are you unsure what facts and evidence are?

anyone who has internal cultivation knows this is what happen in their body-mind.


若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则 血浮气躁、气 息难调，何谈心意？