Shaolin Zhan Zhaung

[rett]

@Hendrik

Shakyamuni ate meat and his monks were allowed to eat meat. The Vinaya Pitaka is very clear about that. He was fully enlightened and he had many enlightened disciples.

[Hendrik]

@Hendrik

Shakyamuni ate meat and his monks were allowed to eat meat. The Vinaya Pitaka is very clear about that. He was fully enlightened and he had many enlightened disciples.

since Shao lin is Chan school
let see what the Shurangama sutra said in the same chapter as my previous post.


Ananda, I permit the Bhikshus to eat five kinds of pure
meat. This meat is actually a transformation brought into being
by my spiritual powers. It basically has no life-force. You
Brahmans live in a climate so hot and humid, and on such
sandy and rocky land, that vegetables will not grow; therefore,
I have had to assist you with spiritual powers and compassion.
Because of the magnitude of this kindness and compassion,
what you eat that tastes like meat is merely said to be meat; in
fact, however, it is not. After my extinction, how can those who
eat the flesh of living beings be called the disciples of Shakya?.....

Therefore, Ananda, if cultivators of Ch’an samadhi do not
cut off killing, they are like one who stops up his ears and calls
out in a loud voice, expecting no one to hear him. It is to wish to
hide what is completely evident.




此亦少林禅功有别于其它功夫之一处。

世人辄曰：酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留，谬论也!少林门人若不修心、意、气，不通禅，何以谈武？所 谓禅拳、禅武 一如岂非妄谈？所谓少林外家乃无稽之谈，外行之讹传，后人之附会而已。

is a proper teaching. we might not be able to do it. but we must not over write it with our own self - agenda reason to break the proper teaching. In fact, one could admit one not be able to do it however one knows the proper teaching. that is nothing wrong with that.

just because one cant do it and find all kinds of reasons to destroy the proper teaching is evil. it is like saying since I am going to hell then might as well get everyone to go to hell too.


so, it is ok to know the proper teaching and know one is not there yet. no one is asking one to be perfect and infact no one is and it is not practical to be perfect. one's job is to get closer and closer to the proper teaching and gain kung fu that way. that is the journey of kung fu to correct what in the past and live a better now.

[Crosshandz]

@Crosshandz

When you wrote even step / non-even step I thought you were referring to the weight distribution, or to standing in ma bu (any width) vs. standing with one leg forward as in san ti si for example.

Did I get that wrong? (the fourfold classification seems to make distinctions that go in another direction, unless I'm missing something which is likely)

Rett

Yes, you were right in what you understood originally because when I first posted I was only thinking about the standing Zhaung positions but as this thread has progressed I have also been developing my thoughts, in a very stream of consciousness incoherent way, which is probably where the confusion came in.

When Hendrik asked me to clarify my thinking about the differences between even step and non even step I thought it would only make sense to discuss the laying and seated Zhuang as well. As, again to my admittedly limited knowledge, I have not seen those used in Xingyiquan. That being said I have seen some of Xie Peiqi's Bagazhuang Zhuang and there are crossovers there it would be very interesting to know what the root of those practices are? Yin Fu's Bagua is based on Shaolin too after all.

[Hendrik]

The Yiquan curriculum seperates the Zhan Zhuang into different categories.............me not fall over when I try to rapidly turn from ma bu into gong bu to punch forg (which may indeed be wrong), I have felt Zhan Zhuang has been essential to improving my ability to transfer power from the ground through my body but that's sort of moving away from the point.

Thank you and appreciate for your sharing.

perhaps somedays you will see what is not in the postures because often the Kung fu is beyond the postures.

[Crosshandz]

Thank you and appreciate for your sharing.

perhaps somedays you will see what is not in the postures because often the Kung fu is beyond the postures.

I'd appreciate your insights on this point.

I don't really understand what you mean to say the Kung fu is beyond the postures. From my experiences there is a casual relationship between the different postures and the different health benefits/training that arise from them.



For instance, the various postures displayed in the above image by Wang Shujin, from my experience all do slightly different things. Each of them stresses a certain point of practice that the others do not and their effect is directly tied to what position you take up.

Its true that you can get the same things from different postures. Its not impossible to get omnidirectional force from San ti shi, for example, the reason it was altered by Wang Xiangzhai was because he felt it was easier to train omnidirectional force by altering the hand positioning (something I would very much concur with as someone not blessed by God with a natural gift for the internal). Is this what you meant or are you pointing at something more?

Can you go into a bit more detail?

[Hendrik]

I'd appreciate your insights on this point.

I don't really understand what you mean to say the Kung fu is beyond the postures. From my experiences there is a casual relationship between the different postures and the different health benefits/training that arise from them.

using Posture + internal method one train and attain a type of Kung fu.

after of have that type of kung fu then Posture is just an expression. it is similar to once one can play piano one can play any song. it is not the song but the way how to play piano.


for example,
if you study Yiquan and doesnt attain the Yiquan hun yuan li and fa li. then you could do all the curiculum perfectly but you dont know Yiquan and doesnt have Yiquan kung fu.



So Kung fu is beyond the posture and curiculum.

even if the curiculum is still there and one could mimic all practice, as soon as one no longer be able to cultivate the Kung fu of that particular style, that kung fu is already extinct.


So, what you post above on Wang Xiang Zai, Shao lin....etc. really doesnt make much sense because those are surface stuffs. unless one knows the kung fu's DNA posture doesnt tell much on where is that from.

[Hendrik]

Its true that you can get the same things from different postures. Its not impossible to get omnidirectional force from San ti shi,

for example, the reason it was altered by Wang Xiangzhai was because he felt it was easier to train omnidirectional force by altering the hand positioning (something I would very much concur with as someone not blessed by God with a natural gift for the internal).

who said that it is impossible to get omnidirectional force from San ti Shi?

anyone has the ominidirectoinal force can do anything and in both static and dynamic and still got that force.

San Ti Shi's internal and external three syncronization 内外三合 at every part of the body is Ominidirectional force.

Taiji's Peng is Omindirectional force.


My opinion for you is to train and really attain the Kung fu and then describe it, as it is. instead of taking anyone's word and mislead the heck out of you. must not be a parrot but be a real human knowing what it is one talking about.

[Hendrik]

For instance, the various postures displayed in the above image by Wang Shujin, from my experience all do slightly different things. Each of them stresses a certain point of practice that the others do not and their effect is directly tied to what position you take up.

Those are just his entertainment or fine tuning on his art at a certain point of his life. you take that seriously you are in trouble.

There real deal is the core all of these entertainment and fine tune. no one has all the time to train all these entertainment. and different people needs different fine tune.

so what is the beef or the core? that is the critical stuffs and most people wont tell you. and you chasing the ghost of all kind of shapes or postures.

[YouKnowWho]

I have never understood the whole "Avoidance of sex" thing. I do BETTER after. It relives an excess of pressure. How can it be bad, if it makes you stronger, and perform better?

Is this an issue unique to Asian peoples? I grew up in an Italian nieghborhood. We viewed sex as a necessary activity to keep us at our peek.

A: Since yesterday was D's wedding, he must be tired from last night.
B: I bet you that he won't dare to come here in the next 3 days.
C: If he comes, he doesn't need to wrestle, he will have soft legs even when he stands.
A: If he comes, I'll wrestle with him. It will be just like to wrestle against a kid.
B: We should not take advantage on old, "weak", sick, and disable.
C: Don't worry about. I'll take easy on him.
A: D, You look so skinny today ...
D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe3V1nydeC0

[Crosshandz]

Unless I've misunderstood your posts Hendrik you seem to be attacking me? Although I don't think I have misunderstood you as you referred to me as a misled parrot.

I am genuinely surprised by the tone of your responses to me and some of the bones you seem to pick e.g. my mentioning of omnidirecitonal force are baffling to me. I never said anywhere that you said omnidirectional force couldn't be attained in San Ti I asked if you were saying if via one posture you could develop the things you develop in all the others? An idea I backed at the time I mentioned that too...

I'm not entirely sure why you felt it was necessary to reply to me in the manner you did. You are free however to make whatever assumptions about me that you feel like doing even if I would perhaps dispute some of them.

My own personal experience is that the different postures do stress slightly different things and I enjoy varying between them for that purpose. If that is chasing ghosts then I am a self-confessed ghost buster.

Moreover, should anyone else have any enlightening input on Shaolin Zhan Zhuang I should be very much interested in hearing about it too.

[Hendrik]

Unless I've misunderstood your posts Hendrik you seem to be attacking me? Although I don't think I have misunderstood you as you referred to me as a misled parrot.


............ I'm not entirely sure why you felt it was necessary to reply to me in the manner you did.

You are free however to make whatever assumptions about me that you feel like doing even if I would perhaps dispute some of them.

English is my x language, so sorry I am not good at diplomatic, and have missed read your post.
however I have no intention to attack you. my reply on the topic technically still applied if you want to discuss.

[YiQuanOne]

e.g. my mentioning of omnidirecitonal force are baffling to me. I never said anywhere that you said omnidirectional force couldn't be attained in San Ti

I think the way you wrote the "omnidirectional force" might have been mis interpreted!

[YouKnowWho]

If we compare the following 2 types of ZZ, we can see a big difference there.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8412/13taibo.jpg

[LFJ]

I have post the link to the full sutra under the quote anyone who is interested could read for themselve.

The bottom line is No meat to keep one clean in mind and body.

Yet you only post for immediate reference what is convenient for pushing your ideals. The context of the paragraph is very important for clarifying the last few sentences.

It says "these people kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle". Eating meat does not mean you have killed. It is obviously not simply talking about diet. If you include the full paragraph you will see what "these people" refer to.

The section is talking about three grave wrongdoings- lusting, killing, and stealing.

It says in the paragraph for each;

1) Lust: "When you teach people of the world to cultivate Samadhi, they must first of all cut off the mind of sexual desire. This is the first clear and decisive instruction on purity given by the Tathagatas, the Buddhas of the past, the Bhagavans."

2) Killing: "When you teach people of the world to cultivate Samadhi, they must also cease killing. This is the second clear and decisive instruction on purity given by the Tathagatas, the Buddhas of the Past, the Bhagavans."

3) Stealing: "When you teach people of the world to cultivate Samadhi, they must also cease stealing. This is the third clear and decisive instruction on purity given by the Tathagatas, the Buddhas of the past, the Bhagavans."

In the section on killing, it talks about ceasing killing and thoughts of killing. Abstaining from meat is a training for such people. It is to purify the mind. The Sūtra says not a thing about vegetarian diet for the body or for those who do not kill or have thoughts of killing.

What you quoted was the end of a paragraph. The section is talking about ceasing the act of killing and thoughts of killing.

Mind you, meat eating is not killing nor does it carry the karma of killing.

you have just violate the teaching of Shurangama sutra and sound like those who is in demonic state which Shurangama sutra describe.

I hope you go read the full sutra.

So you think the mere act of eating meat is equivalent to killing?

Present actions cannot be causes for effects that take place in the past.

That means someone's present choice to eat meat cannot be the cause for the animal being killed, when it had long since been dead before the desire to eat meat arose.

The act of eating meat cannot possibly carry the karma of killing. If you believe this is a teaching in the Śūraṅgama Sūtra, or anywhere in Buddhist teachings, you'll have to provide citation.

By the way, this is the main Sūtra I've studied for years. I'm very familiar with what it says, not that I'm making any sort of spiritual claim by that statement... but I know what it says and does not say. So yes, I have already read the full text many times over.

Shurangama is a teaching of body, mind, soul.

It definitely does not say that. No Buddhist teaching is a teaching of soul.

The Shurangama sutra clearly state the following which I have post in my previous post.

You should know that these people who eat meat may gain
some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all
great rakshasas.

When their retribution ends, they are bound to
sink into the bitter sea of birth and death.

They are not disciples
of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in
a never-ending cycle.

How can such people transcend the Triple
Realm?

Mind you, it says this in the context of ceasing killing and thoughts of killing. Vegetarianism is prescribed to counter those unwholesome acts. That is all.

It is ridiculous to believe that the sentence; "Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle.", refers to anyone who simply has meat in their diet. How can they be guilty of killing?

"Such people as these" clearly refers to those with habits of killing and thoughts of killing, as is the main point of the paragraph.

You take a snippet of the Sūtra that seems to support your ideal universally, and discard the context which proves it does not.

Again, mind you, I have been on a vegetarian diet for many years myself. I am not at all arguing against it!

your After all "一切唯心造" is just an empty talk with mislead yourself and others.

That is not my empty talk, it is Śākyamuni Buddha's famous "empty and misleading talk" from the Avataṃsaka Sūtra.

anyone who has internal cultivation knows this is what happen in their body-mind.


若不知气，行功不知忌口，饮食不加调济，则 血浮气躁、气 息难调，何谈心意？

And anyone who has internal prayer knows God exists and answers prayers...

Sorry, that is not factual evidence for your claim...

[wenshu]

Dude, stop violating the Śūraṅgama Sūtra.