Alive Hand

[sanjuro_ronin]

It may have been mentioned already, but i'm not sure. Without advancing footwork, the live hand cannot continue. There needs to be some type of re-direction in your footwork to properly deliver the next strike or to switch from one to the other as some have given examples of previously.

Keeping this in mind, what type of drills do you use to improve this skill. I can see the use of the dummy as an aide to this, is it possible to refine this skill alone?

Footwork is crucial, is there anything more crucial in the MA ??
Everything we do and HOW we do it comes from footwork:
Without a stable base we have no power, without a flexible and dynamic base, we have no mobility, without correct angles we can't hit the target but the target can certianly hit us !

[TenTigers]

the dummy is good for practicing movement, but it is no substitute for a live dummy-your partner. You need to feel your opponent's energy.
This is why we say that real Gung-Fu can only be passed on through direct transmission, hands-on, from your Sifu. If you don't touch hands with your Sifu on a regular basis, you get nothing. Only shape.

[Brule]

I know where you're coming from Ten, unfortunatley now i am not in any school. I was always the one to volunteer when Sifu wanted to demo a concept or technique, others would ask afterwards, why do you always get up there and i said, cause i need to feel it to learn it. Doesn't matter if he knocked the wind outta me, i was right back and asked to feel it again.

Speaking about Alive hand and what has been presented so far, from what i can gather, it is a concept used to help the student understand that there are more options available when your initial contact is extinguished. For the student to continue with his goal and not end it right there eventhough his initial gwa choy, for example, is stopped. Can we also describe this as a whole body concept? Alive body, because as was mentioned before, techniques are thrown by whole body movement no matter how subtle it may be, not just in the hand or arm.

[jdhowland]

...Can we also describe this as a whole body concept? Alive body, because as was mentioned before, techniques are thrown by whole body movement no matter how subtle it may be, not just in the hand or arm.

Exactly. This is why a dead hand technique can spring back to use so suddenly. The back/waist and "horse" are always alive.

[YouKnowWho]

Think of when you are grappling and you try for a lock or choke and the opponent blocks you, you don't "disconnect" but "effortlessly" go to the nest sub and the one after that and the one after that, always flowing with, but never following, more like leading.

Sometime you don't want to let your opponent to force you to "flow" with him. It takes you some effort to occupy your opponent's territory, you just don't want to give up that territory without letting your opponent to fight hard to take back that territory.

I just met a 260 lb Taiji instructor 1 hour ago in the park. We did some push hands but it soon turned into wrestling. In the beginning, I responsed to my opponent's moves and "flow" with him. Then I decided to test his skill level, the moment that I got my back neck clinching, I just won't let it go. This way, I forced my opponent to play with my game instead of for me to play with his game. When my opponent tried to break my clinching, he forgot to attack me and I had put him in defense mode. That gave me a lot of advantage.

[stonecrusher69]

Thought i'd break this into a new thread from the main forum as i find this an interesting concept. Maybe TenTigers can shred more light on this. This sounds similar to the hung gar application of reserve. But the tricky thing here is how do you train and apply this.

Thoughts?

relax your mucles and dont commit your energy until the last moment.

[Hardwork108]

in SPM, the hand is alive, It strikes but is relaxed, so if it encounters opposition, the energy changes angles and continues striking as the body moves forward, which allows the hand to always "recharge" as it moves forward. Since the strike is relaxed, it can deliver power at the end of the power chain.
easier said than done...

Thought i'd break this into a new thread from the main forum as i find this an interesting concept. Maybe TenTigers can shred more light on this. This sounds similar to the hung gar application of reserve. But the tricky thing here is how do you train and apply this.

Thoughts?

I came to this discussion late and have not read all the posts, so I apologize if anyone else has mentioned this already, but it is my understanding of the Internals that if you practice them then your hands have to be "alive", as that is one of the points of practicing the Internals.

I personally have not heard of an Internal style that uses "dead hands", as in the way TCMA views some Karate techniques (from certain styles).

My Wing Chun training also emphasized "alive hands", where your hands are "listening" and reacting instantly to changes and where the techniques are never meant to be so committed that you will not be able to change and LEAK through.

Of course, the way most people train their WC nowadays, they would probably screw up even the "dead hand" techniques., let alone the more advanced "alive" ones.

I am glad that we are having this kind of discussion because in the past when I had brought up subjects such as "aliveness" or "liveness"; "softness" and "sensitivity" together with "listening" and "sticking" concepts/abilities, and their relations to the INTERNALS, most people here in the forums thought that I was talking about "fantasy" stuff such as "magic powers".

I am glad to see that the forum has evolved further away from MMA knuckleheadness and more towards serious TCMA discussion.

[Subitai]

Most of the good stuff being said in this thread is common knowledge for the schools that know HOW to apply. Good kung fu is this way.

Some people may describe these principles differently but when you get them in the same room together and touch hands alittle you'll quickly see either they understand or not.

In my school, we describe part of these concepts as "the hand doesn't come back empty" also "wherever you move I follow you". Most importantly for my particular speciality; " The way into danger is the way out and vice versa" Most of the bridging concepts and ideas being discussed here are for me included in these sayings.

Different terminology but in practice, it's all that matters to me. In the past, I have written about the "Gun and the Bullet" concept.

Over the years i've adapted TONS of ways taken from Traditional Hung Style to deal with more modern fighting concepts. Realistic set up and entry is vital...Nobody will just walk up and reverse punch you...haha.

In my training know, I focus on the Gun intensely. It is most important and my obsession.
http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewto...t=1347&start=0
(7th post down)

"O"

[Brule]

The gun and bullet is a good analogy. My intention of putting these threads up was to hopefully have people discuss things in a civil manner yet still pertaining to kung fu. Like you say, most good schools teach these methods in one way or another, not all may be using the same terminology but are learning it the same way. Words cannot substitute a two minute personal lesson.