Alive Hand

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, in both lineages that I have experience in, Lao was always "restrain" to not over commit the strike or over extend the elbow and the reason was so that you could react quicker to counters.

[Indrafist]

When you talk about dead hands, these are one-shot winners where all energy is put into the one strike to achieve the goal. When you talk about live hands, you allow for some redirection once it is met with a force it cannot overcome. With live hand, you are always holding back, and not re-charging the limb to strike again, correct? If this is the case, why practise this method at all as not all your energy is not put into the strike.

Not trolling here guys, just trying to understand these concepts and trying to have a civil discussion.

There's a bandwidth of live-hands that run from a boxer's feint to structured 'sticking'. The former is probably more reliably applicable than the latter. The reduction of the concept of a 'bridge' from genralised interaction (including non contact interactions) to (say) arm bridges can lead to an overstatement on sticking or feeling. Whilst it's good to develop these skills, in practice contact is seldom so structured or smooth as to allow them free play. They can become an absorbing abstraction and then lead to all sorts of dogmatic justifications. Clinch work (which is a kind of bridge) is less formal, and is usually just structured enough to be readily effective. The question for live-hand training is if it can be deconstructed, without losing any of the benefits derived from its compliant practice. I'm fairly certain that it can,
but this takes a development away from the usual live-hand training. Dead-hand hits are bandwidthed too. Some are more dumb-bomb than others. If our approach is principle led, rather than techique or dogma-led, then most of the decisions are taken for us, in other words the technique emerges in the moment: either dead or live-handed.

Indra.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing I will add and to expand a bit on Indra's mention of "clinch work":
Over the years in the judo, wrestling, MT and BJJ I have done and had the previlage to face, I have found that bridging ( of the static sense) leads to stand up clinch work which quite often leads to throws,takedowns and ground work.
Live hand can be the "solution" to this problem buT ONLY if it is exposed to the shapes and feels that it will see under those conditions.

[jdhowland]

One thing I will add and to expand a bit on Indra's mention of "clinch work":

...Live hand can be the "solution" to this problem buT ONLY if it is exposed to the shapes and feels that it will see under those conditions.

There it is.

Excellent observation.

[Brule]

When you say live hand can be solution to this problem are you suggesting live hand skill will give a better chance of escaping the clinch and working into the striking range or are you saying it gives you a better chance within the clinch?

[sanjuro_ronin]

When you say live hand can be solution to this problem are you suggesting live hand skill will give a better chance of escaping the clinch and working into the striking range or are you saying it gives you a better chance within the clinch?

More options in dealing with the clinch than a "dead" hand.

[TenTigers]

big bombs don't need to be dead. If the strike is thrown with relaxed power((-steel ball at the end of a chain, whipping of the waist and torso (I believe it may have been Indra who first mentioned the illustration of the Tibetan Prayer Wheel)) the hand can respond and redirect. Buk Sing CLF guys are very good at this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

big bombs don't need to be dead. If the strike is thrown with relaxed power((-steel ball at the end of a chain, whipping of the waist and torso (I believe it may have been Indra who first mentioned the illustration of the Tibetan Prayer Wheel)) the hand can respond and redirect. Buk Sing CLF guys are very good at this.

Quite correct, "heavy handedness" has it place of course but we should remember that just because it starts off "heavy" doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

[Indrafist]

big bombs don't need to be dead. If the strike is thrown with relaxed power((-steel ball at the end of a chain, whipping of the waist and torso (I believe it may have been Indra who first mentioned the illustration of the Tibetan Prayer Wheel)) the hand can respond and redirect. Buk Sing CLF guys are very good at this.

Hi Ten Tigers, yes Lion's Roar and CLF share the waist and torso torque.
Breaking down long power into short power, then back up to long again, so that you can 'arc-segment' a line and refire with whole-body ging. The line being a curved path, such as a hook, or any linear pathway. This is different to short-bridge sticking, but it can incorporate it. Short power against long (breaking up the limb) and long against the body (close range whole body follow thru). Note that I'm not advocating repeated short strikes as limb destruction (ref. the recent debate about this: just that structure breakers can be limb hits, off from which a long arc can refire). Short at long range and long at short range often goes against what some see as common sense. This isn't a dogma, it's a testable hypothesis.

Indra.

[Indrafist]

Quite correct, "heavy handedness" has it place of course but we should remember that just because it starts off "heavy" doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

An example from long-fist styles could be an overhand right (Kahp Choi) onto someone's guard/bridge which softens immediately prior to contact into a hooking hand to torque a limb and break the target's structural symmetry, giving an opening for repeated follow thru's with long or short hands.

Indra.

[sanjuro_ronin]

An example from long-fist styles could be an overhand right (Kahp Choi) onto someone's guard/bridge which softens immediately prior to contact into a hooking hand to torque a limb and break the target's structural symmetry, giving an opening for repeated follow thru's with long or short hands.

Indra.

Or an upward palm the, after contact, turns into a downward palm.
A low hammerfist the turns into a rising elbow with the same hand , that turns into a low "cutting" palm and so forth...

[Indrafist]

Or an upward palm the, after contact, turns into a downward palm.
A low hammerfist the turns into a rising elbow with the same hand , that turns into a low "cutting" palm and so forth...

Absolutely

[TenTigers]

An example from long-fist styles could be an overhand right (Kahp Choi) onto someone's guard/bridge which softens immediately prior to contact into a hooking hand to torque a limb and break the target's structural symmetry, giving an opening for repeated follow thru's with long or short hands.

Indra.

exactly the example I had in mind!

[Jimbo]

Another example might be when stepping in using a Kwa Choi (long downward backfist), then turning the same hand and hooking the opponent's arm as he raises it to defend. Your other arm can follow into a forearm or other strike to his upper arm, as your first hand continues sliding towards his wrist/pulls. Then your first hand quickly releases the hook and shoots forward to straight punch into the body, or even a hook or horizontal Sow Choi up higher. With the latter, by adding a step behind him, it can also become a takedown.

That's a long-winded description, as the actual movements happen very quickly.

[Brule]

It may have been mentioned already, but i'm not sure. Without advancing footwork, the live hand cannot continue. There needs to be some type of re-direction in your footwork to properly deliver the next strike or to switch from one to the other as some have given examples of previously.

Keeping this in mind, what type of drills do you use to improve this skill. I can see the use of the dummy as an aide to this, is it possible to refine this skill alone?