Shaolin diet, vegetarianism and stuff

[Lucas]

What is wrong with being an a$$hole?

The world requires a$$holes! If there were not people to unravel our quaint little ideas of ourselves and the world, how would be test our realization?

you give my life meaning!

[LFJ]

We are but illusory elements of Hendrick's wet dream. Especially you.

I heard you two were totes making out in hendrik's wet dream.

lol

What is it with Hendrik and wet dreams anyway?

[Scott R. Brown]

lol

What is it with Hendrik and wet dreams anyway?

He is clearly sexually frustrated and doesn't know what to do about it!

[bawang]

you guys should train at shaolin temple. you would have a fun time getting your vitamin b12 from traces of insect feces.

[rett]

when my family could only afford meat once a month, i dreamed of meat. you guys are just bored gluttons.

A bit envious aren't we? That's what you get for extolling a servile society where the emperor is emperor and peasants are peasants. You reap what you sow. In free societies we have plenty of wealth to go around. Even the poor can eat themselves fat on junk food.

[bawang]

i would not only starve for an emperor, i would die for an emperor.

[Matthew]

Matthew, you are a bit too dogmatic and fundamentalist, not to mention long-winded, to respond to every point you are trying to make. But if you don't even have a basic understanding of the definition of Karma in Buddhism, then I don't think our discussion will be productive until you've studied a bit more on that subject.

Since the Chan school is basically stripped down Yogācāra philosophy

There are many dharma doors. Dogmatic is a word that is of frequent semantic debate through common improper usage- I don't think it will be useful to delve into arguments of english word origins as we are busy enough delving into ChanWuYi school. Fundamentalist is not insulting to me at all.

As far as Chan school being "stripped down" -you have missed a great part of the ChanWuYi reading which I will further suggest to you to understand the Shaolin tradition we are discussing.
All of the books contents are freely seen/read Here

As we can see directly at the beginning- and as we know from the lineage- Chan school is a blending of Chinese philosophy with existing Buddhist thought. This perspective allows us to rid the words "Watered down" as it implies Chan school is less buddhist in it's essential teachings or is a less valid dharma door.

In several mentions Shi De Jian can be heard saying that when Buddhist Indians were practicing Yoga - it was to cultivate Dhyāna. Thus the Chan school (in this case ChanWuYi which makes mentions of being very close to the Chan Origins associated with Daoist Qi exercises in it's founding in China)- uses preexisting Chinese Wu (Martial) Study (from Daoist Qi exercises, preexisting Shaolin and Shaolin Area physical exercises, and various other Older chinese derived bodily exercises) to cultivate Chan in a similar manner that Yogacara use Yoga to cultivate Dhyāna. In the ChanWuYi book there are differentiating factors mentioned as to why the Chan School is different.

That's what they say, but we can see where each school came from by tracing its history and what the patriarchs taught- in Chan/Zen as well. There's quite a bit of necessary talking. It's not just "shut up and think what you want".

I have reread through some linked articles as you previouslysuggested. I retract any suggestion there is direct negative karmic effect of eating meat- but only while furthering my argument that a follower of the Buddha would not eat meat because of the implications it has with not being fully compassionate in supporting any animal harming industry (whether through monetary support, verbal support, etc) As I aforementioned- this is ignoring the 2 cases- 1) finding a dead animal that died of natural causes, or 2) receiving the meat from another person without your intent for them to get it)

Why are we ignoring these? Because 1) they are either such rare cases as to not be relevant to our discussion and 2) they are not specifically relevant to ChanWuYi school as their village has many lay-buddhists who grow food there for the temple.


1) They force people to eat vegetarian diet, which can be dangerous.

1 Answer) We concluded it was not dangerous- because there is no evidence anyone was being forced to eat vegetarian. We further came to informal consensus that as vegetarian is part of the definition of a Chan Wu Yi practitioner- that it is contradictory to even assume it is possible that a meat eater can be a ChanWuYi practitioner. (Refer to the wanting to understand physics without doing math)

Further to understand the inseparable combination of ChanWuYi- you must practice Yi (and obviously practice Wu and Chan) if you are to be a ChanWuYi practitioner. This Link provides a simplified understanding of what Chinese Medicine theory entails.

Understanding what Yi (Chinese Medicine Theory in ChanWu Shaolin tradition) entails- is crucial to constructive discussion on the topic of Chan and ChanWuYi school, as both are of Chinese cultural understanding. (Again- I will emphasize that saying Chan is watered down form of any other buddhist practice in any way would imply it is a less valid dharma door- which there is no support for as it is a statement without value).


As the Bencaogangmu (one of the foremost TCM (traditional Chinese Medicine) theory text has been cited there- we should also mention TCM understanding has evolved since the time this text as China's sociocultural understandings have seen the tides of time and the influence it brings. That is to say- I do not think quoting something of old is "dogmatic" or overly problematic as long as one keeps the important goal in sight. In TCM case that is the healing and long term health of the practitioner- in the Buddhist case no matter the school- this is the essential teaching of the Buddha-I see this TCM evolution as similar to how Chan (and thus ChanWuYi) developed from a previous Buddhist school- Yogacara as you indicate.

In traditional Shaolin Wu (and here in ChanWuYi) the Xin (heart) must be coordinated with Yi (Mind intent) and the Yi (Mind intent) must be coordinated with Qi (life force) in ChanWuYi practice. (Further there are 6 combinations that are already extremely well known Xin(1)Yi(2)Qi(3)Li and 3 external combinations- but these others will not be beneficial in explicating the connection of ChanWu and Yi).

Yi (TCM Theory and specifically this shaolin branch ChanWuYi) theory includes various elements that negatively affect people's Xin (emotion) and Yi (intent) and Qi (Life force) and therefore their ability to progress in ChanWuYi. Yi also includes theory on how meat and spicy foods negatively affect the health of the person (some explanations in which have scientific backing). From well-being issues with the body (digestive issues, mental issues, disease and other health related issues) in Yi- we can clearly see that purifying Xin and Yi by not eating meat is indeed important if we are to attempt and coordinate our Xin (Heart) and Yi (Mind intent) with our Qi (the body life force). There is also plenty of discussion in the ChanWuYi book and in videos online available that discuss the issues with meat/spicy foods and Qi.

__________________________________________________ _________________________
further points of possible discussion I see left inside this thread (that would continue to be relevant to the point) other than any continuations from the above content or new relevant topics others may have:

1) If ChanWuYi school claims to be of original Shaolin Tradition while casting aside meat eating- is this indeed original shaolin tradition?

2) Who in association with Shaolin temple still eats meat- and are they (according to their buddhist canon) preventing their own enlightenment or that of all beings?


____________________________________
Further points of possible discussion that I see left Outside of this thread (as to develop a greater focus and research into it instead of having one disordered thread as this is becoming)

1) From a scientific understanding, is refraining from eating meat in anyway beneficial to health? (And subsequently if there is any validity to a Yes response: Then is conducive to more effective Martial Practice or Martial Study? )

2) Are there elements of Chinese understanding in 医 Traditional Chinese Medicine theory or any of it's subsequent branches that indicate meat consumption negatively influences the well-being (long term health) of humans?

3) What is ChanWuYi? Is it a less valid dharma door than the greater Chan School?

4) Is the ChanWuYi school a less valid Dharma Door than what early yogacarins practiced or what other chan schools currently practice? (Obviously there can be more lineage questions of the same nature about any modern existing sects- but most are not related to WuXue (Martial study) and are not relevant to this entire forum)

As to why I am still posting and defending the idea that refraining from meat eating is beneficial:

(From my personal understanding- I would not want to be part of a temple where the abbot/head monk is not compassionate enough to suggest people bring in food that did not harm animals. Of course any stranger could walk in with meat- but it would be a greater compassionate decision to not even eat the meat as in eating it- it shows tentative acceptance that someone somewhere supported the killing of a living being.) I would say that I would hope to be somewhere on the path to enlightment as part of a temple where everyone who took refuge/precepts that is at the temple shows the utmost compassion possible where they refrain from eating meat. This is the most compassionate choice as to meat eating as meat eating supports the killing of living beings. The exception I obviously give is as mentioned before in this post and in others- when they must eat meat for the rare health related issue. I believe it is a quicker path for me to practice non-meat eating and therefore end my indirect support the killing of beings

[LFJ]

There are many dharma doors. Dogmatic is a word that is of frequent semantic debate through common improper usage- I don't think it will be useful to delve into arguments of english word origins as we are busy enough delving into ChanWuYi school. Fundamentalist is not insulting to me at all.

Finding you to be dogmatic or fundamentalist was not meant to be insulting.

As far as Chan school being "stripped down" -you have missed a great part of the ChanWuYi reading which I will further suggest to you to understand the Shaolin tradition we are discussing.....

As we can see directly at the beginning- and as we know from the lineage- Chan school is a blending of Chinese philosophy with existing Buddhist thought. This perspective allows us to rid the words "Watered down" as it implies Chan school is less buddhist in it's essential teachings or is a less valid dharma door.....

(Again- I will emphasize that saying Chan is watered down form of any other buddhist practice in any way would imply it is a less valid dharma door- which there is no support for as it is a statement without value).....

.....to cultivate Chan in a similar manner that Yogacara use Yoga to cultivate Dhyāna.

Since you clearly don't know what Yogācāra is, it's no wonder you misunderstand what I meant by Chan being "stripped down Yogācāra" (not "watered" down). So I'll explain:

Although Yogācāra means "Yoga practice", in this case "Yoga" doesn't refer to the breathing and stretching exercises. It refers to meditation. The Yogācāra school is a highly sophisticated system of consciousness. It basically describes in great detail what all Chan masters talk about. Yet, with it's great detail it also emphasizes the ultimate unreliability and limit of language.

Understanding Yogācāra philosophy makes sense of all the seemingly nonsensical Chan talk, because Chan is basically the same as Yogācāra without talking about the whole elaborate system of consciousness (although it is present in many Chan texts like; Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra, Śūraṅgama Sūtra, etc.).

In that sense it is "stripped down", yet of the same essence, and therefore not a "less valid Dharma door" or "watered down" which would imply dilution.

If you look at the Indian lineage of Chan, you will find the 21st Patriarch is Vasubandhu, one of the founders of the Yogācāra school! Yogācāra and Chan are of no real difference.

[Matthew]

Although Yogācāra means "Yoga practice", in this case "Yoga" doesn't refer to the breathing and stretching exercises. It refers to meditation.

The two things you are mentioning are of the same origin and reason in practicing- but it should be mentioned.. not only is this off topic, but I also did not mention stretching or breathing exercises in my post. It is an issue that is seen when we use words from other languages without clarifying what we mean.

This is also the issue with the word Chan. When it is transliterated- we use the Indian derived "Dhyana." In the ChanWuYi text that this thread is about- it has differences in cultural terms. This is even similar the word "Buddhism," which has a core definition and differences in cultural terms as well.

It is common transliterated as "dhyana" which, when the sociocultural context of China and India is included, can be considered an incomplete translation.

"Chan" used to be an ancient Indian religious practice and is particularly important in the daily living and philosophy of Buddhism. Chan is one form of quietude. In Chinese Buddhism, Chan is frequently combined with quietude to become "Chan quietude" and has a more encompassing meaning."

Generally, Chan in Chinese (and obviously in the context of this ChanWuYi book) refers to the Chan or "Chan Quietude" that has been developed in China (and yes as you persistently point out as we know from Buddhist history- originally From India).

Further when I use the word Chan, I refer to it in the Chinese context in which it is used by Chinese themselves and I am not referring to Indian Yogic practice which as you believe defines Chan.

It seems I have spent too much time using quotes from the ChanWuYi link mentioned, as you have yet to consider it's perspective as written in the book- despite it being the central theme of this entire thread. When you read it, you will be able to use it as a lens for this discussion to gain clarity.

Understanding Yogācāra philosophy makes sense of all the seemingly nonsensical Chan talk, because Chan is basically the same as Yogācāra without talking about the whole elaborate system of consciousness (although it is present in many Chan texts like; Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra, Śūraṅgama Sūtra, etc.).

Chan became what it is through a fusion of pre-existing Chinese understanding and practice- I will first assume that by "Chan talk" you are referring to Chinese masters such as those in question in ChanWuYi such as Shi De Jian. I would not contend understanding Yogacara will make sense of All "Chan Talk," as Chan takes on Chinese cultural understanding.

I would contend that understanding Chinese historical influences on the Chan school would help make more sense of ChanWuYi- Which is the point of this thread- and is the primary content you have skipped over that I have posted regarding Wu, Yi, and Chan as they are found in the ChanWuYi text and greater shaolin history in relation to Chan Buddhism.

If you look at the Indian lineage of Chan, you will find the 21st Patriarch is Vasubandhu, one of the founders of the Yogācāra school! Yogācāra and Chan are of no real difference.

By saying they are of "no real difference," you overlooking the vastly significant cultural context in which they developed. This is the point of our conversation- Shaolin and Vegetarianism through the context of ChanWuYi.

I will repost parts of my previous post below to try and bring the topic back to focus!- there may be people still wishing to discuss Buddhist practice in the context of Vegetarianism, Shaolin, Martial practice, and/or Chinese Medicine.

Further points of possible discussion I see left inside this thread (that would continue to be relevant to the point) other than any continuations from the above content or new relevant topics others may have:

1) If ChanWuYi school claims to be of original Shaolin Tradition while casting aside meat eating- is this indeed original shaolin tradition?

2) Who in association with Shaolin temple still eats meat- and are they (according to their buddhist canon) preventing their own enlightenment or that of all beings?


____________________________________
Further points of possible discussion that I see left Outside of this thread (as to develop a greater focus and research into it instead of having one disordered thread as this is becoming)

1) From a scientific understanding, is refraining from eating meat in anyway beneficial to health? (And subsequently if there is any validity to a Yes response: Then is conducive to more effective Martial Practice or Martial Study? )

2) Are there elements of Chinese understanding in 医 Traditional Chinese Medicine theory or any of it's subsequent branches that indicate meat consumption negatively influences the well-being (long term health) of humans?

[wenshu]

For the sake of brevity; vegetarianism is good and Chan is from China.

You type so much yet say so little.

[LFJ]

The two things you are mentioning are of the same origin and reason in practicing- but it should be mentioned.. not only is this off topic, but I also did not mention stretching or breathing exercises in my post. It is an issue that is seen when we use words from other languages without clarifying what we mean.

You said, minus the parenthesis;

"Thus the Chan school uses preexisting Chinese Wu (Martial) Study to cultivate Chan in a similar manner that Yogacara use Yoga to cultivate Dhyāna."

If you did not mean to use "Yoga" in reference to breathing and stretching exercises, then you are making no sense.

Yogā and Dhyāna are synonymous terms. You are saying "use meditation to cultivate meditation."

Chan became what it is through a fusion of pre-existing Chinese understanding and practice- I will first assume that by "Chan talk" you are referring to Chinese masters such as those in question in ChanWuYi such as Shi De Jian. I would not contend understanding Yogacara will make sense of All "Chan Talk," as Chan takes on Chinese cultural understanding.

By "Chan talk" I meant the seemingly nonsensical gong'an we hear from historical Chan masters. With an understanding of Yogācāra these become very clear. The Chinese Chan masters simply attempt to cut straight to the point. Whereas the Yogācārins can clarify why it is so.

The "Chan" you are talking about is just cultural mess and really has nothing to do with real Chan. As Bodhidharma says in the Bloodstream Discourse;

"This nature is the mind. And the mind is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the path. And the path is Chan."

He continues;

"Seeing your nature is Chan. Unless you see your nature, it's not Chan."

So this cultural nonsense means nothing. That is not what Chan is.

By saying they are of "no real difference," you overlooking the vastly significant cultural context in which they developed. This is the point of our conversation- Shaolin and Vegetarianism through the context of ChanWuYi.

By being distracted by "cultural context" you miss the point. You can't talk to me about meat-eating in relation to karmic retribution, and point to culture rather than mind! I don't care what one's culture says, if it is wrong.

[bawang]

the whole point of chan is rejecting convoluted philosophy

the ironing

[LFJ]

the whole point of chan is rejecting convoluted philosophy

the ironing

That's a pretty selfish form of Chan.

[Matthew]

You said, minus the parenthesis;

"Thus the Chan school uses preexisting Chinese Wu (Martial) Study to cultivate Chan in a similar manner that Yogacara use Yoga to cultivate Dhyāna."

If you did not mean to use "Yoga" in reference to breathing and stretching exercises, then you are making no sense.

Yogā and Dhyāna are synonymous terms. You are saying "use meditation to cultivate meditation."

Now apply this to the combination of Chan, Wu, and Yi and then you will have a basic picture from which to draw upon.

By being distracted by "cultural context" you miss the point. You can't talk to me about meat-eating in relation to karmic retribution, and point to culture rather than mind! I don't care what one's culture says, if it is wrong.

I stopped and retracted from the meat in karma- I noted that I was incorrect in stating on written sutra as you accept them (obviously this is other than from Lankavatara Sutra that mentions karmic hinderance in meat eating, which you reject on the basis it was written by a Chinese).

In any case- what I can't talk to you about is not meat-eating.. it is about ChanWuYi and Shaolin vegetarianism, which has been the point of this thread that you have continually missed in the later half of this thread.

The Chinese Chan masters simply attempt to cut straight to the point. Whereas the Yogācārins can clarify why it is so.

The "Chan" you are talking about is just cultural mess and really has nothing to do with real Chan.

It sounds that you have read too many books about what it is and isn't- I hope you can meet (meat?) a being or experience that will end your suffering. Maybe a historian now- I hope a buddha in the future.

Old teacher has a good saying for us- mistaking the pointing finger with the moon.

[LFJ]

Now apply this to the combination of Chan, Wu, and Yi and then you will have a basic picture from which to draw upon.

No idea what you're talking about.

I stopped and retracted from the meat in karma- I noted that I was incorrect in stating on written sutra as you accept them (obviously this is other than from Lankavatara Sutra that mentions karmic hinderance in meat eating, which you reject on the basis it was written by a Chinese).

Again, it's unclear what you're saying here, and I never said I reject the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra because it was written by Chinese. I simply don't agree that it says what you read it to say.

In any case- what I can't talk to you about is not meat-eating.. it is about ChanWuYi and Shaolin vegetarianism, which has been the point of this thread that you have continually missed in the later half of this thread.

This thread was started to continue a previous discussion in the Zhanzhuang thread about an issue I took with some statements regarding vegetarianism as a requirement for high level martial arts and enlightenment.

The rest of the thread's development has been both sides explaining why they believe those statements to be true or false. One subject was the issue of karma. There were other points of discussion as well.

I'm not sure what you think has been off topic, or what "on topic" is.

It sounds that you have read too many books about what it is and isn't- I hope you can meet (meat?) a being or experience that will end your suffering. Maybe a historian now- I hope a buddha in the future.

Old teacher has a good saying for us- mistaking the pointing finger with the moon.

Once again, I don't know what you're trying to say here.