Shaolin diet, vegetarianism and stuff

[bawang]

Everything you say makes perfect sense to me.

we must end the genocide against cereal grains and tubers

[Kellen Bassette]

IDK if "Real Science, Real Agenda" are attempts to condescend,

Everything I say is an attempt to condescend.

AFAIK, that is false, cats do need meat/are carnivorous.

I wasn't saying house cats don't need meat, I was saying house cats don't need to hunt and kill. After all, they are fed outrageously expensive food by us.

My point was, cats kill birds because it is in their nature. You believe humans eating meat is cruel. I believe it is natural for humans to eat meat. Our personal religions differ.

Some say Martin Luther King Jr's successes wouldn't have been seen without Malcolm X also being part of the picture (moderation and extremism).

(Although your analogy has nothing to do with plant-based diets...)

My analogy has to do with ideological extremists doing their own cause more harm than good. It's plain to see you (general you) would have more success trying to sway people to supporting more responsible farming practices, than telling them meat is killing them, or it is evil to eat it.

I think your statement exemplifies another issue..

that plant-based-diet-advocates who include mention of ethical considerations are often portrayed as hidden-agenda-promoting 'scare-mongering-radicals with sociopathic tendencies.

Most of them are viewed that way, because most of them present themselves that way.

Look, I'm not trying to lump every vegan in the same box, but the stereotype exists because the vocal majority are acting this way. That is the face of the "typical" vegan to the rest of the mainstream.

EDIT: I think some people might be scared/unhappy of the mere possibility that they can't use healthy diet as an excuse for indulging in animal consumption.

No! People are unhappy when skinny/sickly looking crazies tell them how to be healthy! (Again, I know it seems like I'm broad brushing, but that's the average vegan I run into.)

I also have a big problem with the hypocrisy. Do you never swat a mosquito? What about ride in a car? (How many insects die in a typical car ride? If your in there, your party to it.) How do you justify the animals that are killed during the farming process? What about the havoc agriculture in general wreaks on the environment? (Far and wide the number one cause of land development, loss of bio-diversity and destruction of plant and animal habitat.)

So it's only bad to indirectly cause death to farm/game animals; and all the other things we do, on a grand scale, (which are so much worse and "more cruel" to the animal world, don't count?

I just can't understand how anyone can overlook these glaring contradictions in their philosophy and still preach at us about a hot dog, with an air of superiority.

[Kellen Bassette]

we must end the genocide against cereal grains and tubers

How many celery stalks must die to indulge our baser urges?

[wenshu]

I just can't understand how anyone can overlook these glaring contradictions in their philosophy and still preach at us about a hot dog, with an air of superiority.

An impotent ego.

[bawang]

An impotent ego.

veganism is just another expression of privilege and social status, just like tanning. everyone used to work under the sun, so pale was elite. now everyone stay in cubes, so browning is elite. meat was precious, so elites gorged on meat. now meat is cheap, so elites disdain meat. vegans can afford to be emaciated, because they are bourgeois oppressors.

I just can't understand how anyone can overlook these glaring contradictions in their philosophy and still preach at us about a hot dog, with an air of superiority.

its easy to understand. hes a parasite that exist because of a powerful state and good economy.

this guy cries about death of chickens but didn't make a single post about trayvon martin. the life of chickens and dogs is more important than black people.

[wenshu]

veganism is just another expression of privilege and social status, just like tanning. everyone used to work under the sun, so pale was elite. now everyone stay in cubes, so browning is elite. meat was precious, so elites gorged on meat. now meat is cheap, so elites disdain meat. vegans can afford to be emaciated, because they are bourgeois oppressors.

meat eating and disdain for vegans and vegetarians has never been more popular among disaffected ex suburban white people with disposable income

http://brooklyncured.com/

your theory needs retooling but I like where your heads at

[Matthew]

veganism is just another expression of privilege and social status, just like tanning.

BAWANG TRANSLATION: But aren't only rich people vegan? Because they can afford it?

Nope! I learned from poor people, peasants who don't eat meat. People without belongings and monks. They taught me the ethical basis of what I know about it.

vegans can afford to be emaciated, because they are bourgeois oppressors.

its easy to understand. hes a parasite that exist because of a powerful state and good economy.

BAWANG TRANSLATION: So aren't vegans too skinny? If we are all poor, can you still be a vegan?

My teacher is not skinny, there are vegan body builders, strength trainers, MMA athletes. My teacher and his elder gong-fu brother are immensely strong and eat nothing but a plant based diet. If you are getting adequate nutritional intake, bawang, you don't need to worry about your comedic warrior ethos

I grow veggies in the back yard, it helps with the bills and the gong fu.

this guy cries about death of chickens but didn't make a single post about trayvon martin. the life of chickens and dogs is more important than black people.

BAWANG TRANSLATION: You claim being compassionate toward beings, But are you really compassionate? Why didn't I see you post about recent news happenings if you are truly compassionate?

I have talked about Trayvon Martin.. and the majority of people I work with through my career position are african american.

You may or may not realize stuff like Trayvon Martin case happen really often and receive no national or international attention whatsoever.. and the verdicts are just as, or more unjust.

But, it is not relevant to this shaolin vegetarian thread

[Matthew]

I believe it is natural for humans to eat meat.

Yes, appeal to nature. No need to evoke your "Real Science" since this your worldview.

People are unhappy when skinny/sickly looking crazies tell them how to be healthy! (Again, I know it seems like I'm broad brushing, but that's the average vegan I run into.)

So you post in one of, if not the only, vegetarian/shaolin thread on this entire forum... to offer your unsolicited opinion about how you dislike other people outside of this forum offering you unsolicited opinions...

I also have a big problem with the hypocrisy.

Awareness has benefits

Do you never swat a mosquito?

It's pretty unrelated to the thread, but since there are so few vocal plant-based eaters/vegetarians on the forum, I'd be happy to take flack and serve as the example for you to sit an try and psychoanalyze.

I'm happy for it, it shows you are at least self-aware enough to be looking for role models.

No, I swoosh mosquitos away. When at home/outdoors, incense or scented repellent sticks smoke them away. When camping, starting a fire wards them off. I believe the Dalai Lama gives mosquitos two warning swooshes before squashing them though if you are interested in his view point.

What about ride in a car?

When I have no other practical mode of transport. I use my bike when possible, public transport, and my feet when possible. I share a car with my wife, and carpool whenever possible.

Cars aren't good comparison to diet, because meat is not necessary. Cars, in many ways, are more of a relative necessity for people's daily lives (at least in most small town, urban small city, and mid-size American cities where public transport is horrible.)

I also advocate for better public transport, like Europe's metro/train system.

(How many insects die in a typical car ride? If your in there, your party to it.)

I sense a theme, but your questions imply a logical fallacy that because we must do some evil, we shouldn't try to do utmost good.

Firstly, I realize driving a car causes beings to die. To a lesser extent, so does the electricity that goes into the computer and monitor I'm using to reply to you.. hence the nature of my replies deal directly with reducing the amount of suffering.

I could be out volunteering and helping elderly/poor/etc. But at the moment I'm responding to your post here because I fully believe you might understand how your own worldview is unnecessarily biased toward those eating plant-based diets.

How do you justify the animals that are killed during the farming process?

There is no justification. The only true justification that one can make, is by being appreciative through their actions and serving to minimize the deaths that result from their actions. Just because I can't be indirectly neutral, doesn't mean I shouldn't do everything I can to try to be.

To put this question in perspective, when industrial farm raised animals for your diet cause More plant life to be harvested than if we directly farmed and ate those plants, and thus more insects/beings/animals killed than simply eating a plant-based diet.
That is before the animals are tortured and slaughtered too.

This isn't shaming you or anyone.. This is showing the facts so people here can decide if and how they want to try to minimize the impact of their life.

What about the havoc agriculture in general wreaks on the environment? (Far and wide the number one cause of land development, loss of bio-diversity and destruction of plant and animal habitat.)

Correct! this is why you should be so publicly fervently against factory farmed meats, which require immense amounts more agriculture than merely eating the plants directly.

Your issues speak more to overpopulation, which spawns other issues. Backyard gardening, IMO, is a practical layman's best way to reduce that individual impact.

So it's only bad to indirectly cause death to farm/game animals; and all the other things we do, on a grand scale, (which are so much worse and "more cruel" to the animal world, don't count?

Like what? Why don't they count? Diet is within the reach of EVERYONE... so it is the pertinent to speak about.

First of all, we are in a Shaolin Vegetarian thread, so although I would love to talk about other things too - I'm hoping not to derail this thread too much as it serves, IMO, as a good resource for beginners interested in hearing some of the debate sides of this topic.

I would love to join a new thread in another section about such things, if you are really genuinely interested in starting one.

I just can't understand how anyone can overlook these glaring contradictions in their philosophy

Exactly! Keep your skeptical mind, but try to apply it to your diet and your naturalistic argument carefully - there may be contradictions.

YOU can make a difference at every meal.

[bawang]

My teacher is not skinny, there are vegan body builders, strength trainers, MMA athletes. My teacher and his elder gong-fu brother are immensely strong and eat nothing but a plant based diet. If you are getting adequate nutritional intake, bawang, you don't need to worry about your comedic warrior ethos

I am ok with eating animals because I feel nothing when I see them get slaughtered. my conscience is pure.

getting b12 from pills made in bacteria vats is as natural as sodomy.

[Matthew]

I am ok with eating animals because I feel nothing when I see them get slaughtered. my conscience is pure.

getting b12 from pills made in bacteria vats is as natural as sodomy.

BAWANG TRANSLATION: Taking B12 pills is unnatural (isn't it just plant-based eaters need to take it??)


AFAIK, Nope, Nearly all the B12 we consume is fortified into our diets.

If you are eating organic, free range animals, you could very well need b12 too. (and obviously plant based diets too)

Unless either person eats enough B12 fortified foods.

EDIT: shortened post. AFAIK, as a significant % of America population has questionable b12 levels. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm

[bawang]

lol fortification just mixes the cyanobacteria powder into the food instead of making pills out of them.

ur just another slave to the drug empire. u cant survive in ur lifestyle without chemical enhancement.


the average poor oppressed chocolate peoples have more pressing matters to worry about than balancing the pH and gut flora of their colons.

[David Jamieson]

I feel no compassion for animals. I feel compassion for black people, because they are treated as lower than beasts and cokroaches.

when Europeans give chocolate brother reparations for 400 years of slavery and oppression, I will think about eating less animals.

so much retard in this comment, I have no comment.

[Alex Córdoba]

I believe the Dalai Lama gives mosquitos two warning swooshes before squashing them though if you are interested in his view point.

Well, being honest, that's because they face a problem you may not. Malaria.

[Kellen Bassette]

Yes, appeal to nature. No need to evoke your "Real Science" since this your worldview.

There is certainly nothing scientific about my statement your addressing, (which is why I noted it was my "personal religion,") but there is also nothing scientific about vegans trying to compare third world diets with doughnut swilling, McDonald's Loving, Coke guzzling, Americans and trying to spin statistics as a judgement against lean meat.

So you post in one of, if not the only, vegetarian/shaolin thread on this entire forum... to offer your unsolicited opinion about how you dislike other people outside of this forum offering you unsolicited opinions...



Awareness has benefits

I like what you did there...however, this is a public forum; so whenever any of us post we're pretty much getting up on the soap box and telling everyone how we think it is; knowing full well a lot of folks are going to disagree and state why with varying degrees of offensiveness.

I hate it when people don't agree with me and congratulate me on my insight too.

It's pretty unrelated to the thread, but since there are so few vocal plant-based eaters/vegetarians on the forum, I'd be happy to take flack and serve as the example for you to sit an try and psychoanalyze.

I'm happy for it, it shows you are at least self-aware enough to be looking for role models.

Well you do it well, hope you don't think I'm calling you a "crazy." Your posts are good and there's probably not a lot of interest in this topic on this particular forum, so if you want to be the guy to put yourself out there, that's cool.

When I have no other practical mode of transport. I use my bike when possible, public transport, and my feet when possible. I share a car with my wife, and carpool whenever possible.

Cars aren't good comparison to diet, because meat is not necessary. Cars, in many ways, are more of a relative necessity for people's daily lives (at least in most small town, urban small city, and mid-size American cities where public transport is horrible.)

I also advocate for better public transport, like Europe's metro/train system.

I don't believe cars are necessary. They are necessary to maintain the modern standard of living/quality of life in non urban areas...but that is a choice too. The Amish have different convictions, they get by without cars, it comes down to how principled are you.

I also am interested in better public transport, I also drive cars. Apparently my convictions don't run that deep.

Any reasonable person can see there is now way for the human race to exist without harming other creatures, I just find it eyebrow raising that the eating of animals that were raised to that end, is ridiculed so much more than the much greater evil of agriculture in general.

I think, since agriculture is absolutely necessary to our survival, it is easier for people to criticize others for not abstaining from meat like them, (something fairly easy to do,) instead of advocating more and better reforms in agriculture in general, (something much harder to accomplish and affords no moral high ground to anyone, since we are all part of the industry.)

I sense a theme, but your questions imply a logical fallacy that because we must do some evil, we shouldn't try to do utmost good.

No I totally get that; and respect it, even if we have different opinions on right and wrong. My point is, people, (i think willingly sometimes,) miss the bigger picture for a chance to preach at others for not adopting their own perceived virtues.

I could be out volunteering and helping elderly/poor/etc. But at the moment I'm responding to your post here because I fully believe you might understand how your own worldview is unnecessarily biased toward those eating plant-based diets.

Then my master plan is working! Me and my meat eating cohorts have successfully distracted you from helping old ladies across the street! The moral fabric of society is breaking down! Anarchy is inevitable and out of the ashes a new order of super villains will arise, sieze power and oppress mankind!!!

I'm actually not biased against vegetarians/vegans. I have no issue with what they do and have no problem with them recruiting and spreading their "gospel," if you will.

My complaint arises when they use absurd scare tactics, junk science and stubbornly refuse to accept that their beliefs are inherently religious.

If someone told me they feel eating meat is wrong and I am wrong for doing it, I would be fine. I would argue with them and point out what I think are serious holes in their logic, but I would have no problem hearing it out and them attempting to convert me. My problem comes when the above mentioned methods are employed.

Correct! this is why you should be so publicly fervently against factory farmed meats, which require immense amounts more agriculture than merely eating the plants directly.

Your issues speak more to overpopulation, which spawns other issues. Backyard gardening, IMO, is a practical layman's best way to reduce that individual impact.

This is all correct, my interest lies in conservation/wise land use/smart development, really only marginally related to this issue, however, since I have strong libertarian leanings, I am opposed to any heavy handed/government forced measures to change society/industry. Thus I can only offer my views, hope they make sense to those that care and wait while attitudes slowly change.

If I were just a fascist, (or Democrat or Republican,) I wouldn't have nearly so much conflict of interest. And no crisis of conscience.

Exactly! Keep your skeptical mind, but try to apply it to your diet and your naturalistic argument carefully - there may be contradictions.

There's plenty of contradictions in most of these posts. I just try to catch others before they catch mine!

[bawang]

i have eaten many baby chickens this week. their anguish makes me stronger.