What is Structure to you?

[lance]

There seems to be an awful lot of ideas going around on what "structure" is and how it is applied and trained, so I'm just going to throw it out there and hope it doesn't degrad down to a beimo match setup like my last thread.

So what is structure to you?

The samething happened to me too , where my reply to a certain thread turned into a debate or argument too , some people are open minded and some people are close minded .

Anyway , I agree with YOuKNowWho on structure , also regardless of what martial arts you personally study yourself . You have an excercise to develop power , and do the exercise so that you can develop that power within you .

[nasmedicine]

I have a "school" Thanks. My original posting was trying to get an opinion on the provenance of the idea of 'structure' - whether it is a concept that was taught by Yip Man to his original students or whether it was grafted on to Wing Chun by later sifu ( which seems to me many ideas concerning VT are). There are parallels to VT structure with tai chi. I was always curious about the parallels. So I was not curious at all about whether it works in a fight or not. Believe it or not sometimes people are interested in learning about something because of naked curiosity - knowledge for knowledge's sake.

sorry for straying away from the original post.

[Hendrik]

For me,


Structure is just the body rack similar to a body rack of a car.

So, analogy to Car, there are the truck rack, the four wheel drive rack, the two wheel drive rack, the racer car rack.....etc


rack is not power/momentum generator but to have an effective design the Rack and the momentum generator has to be support each others dynamically.


when the rack at rest and the rack in action or in dynamic, both has to be able to sustain itself.

a proper momentum generator is a generator which support the rack and wheel smoothly. IE a four wheel drive engine comes with a four wheel drive rack.





The issue with Wing Chun is some think the triangle shape as structure.

however, the triangle shape is not the rack and it cannot be.

Why? because a triangle is strong only at the edge. while there are much bigger area which is totally flat in the side of the triangle. and if that part of the rack got hit, the structure got totally destroy. so it is trouble to go that way. the triangle type of rack is the best to be a water tower rack which stood still to hold water. it cannot be used while drive in jungle and roll over safely.

also, it is not practical to keep adjust oneself to have those forward facing pressure thinking one always has an (triangle) edge towards others. take a look at the mmA real fight and see what is going on in the continuous dynamics. or even the BJJ take down, see what happen when those who has the forward facing pressure edge crash with the Bjj, the result is they got taken down.


Thus, the elbow to the center line, the forward pressure types of stuffs are great in theoritical world. in real life, it doesnt well work when facing multi-dimensional momentum impact.






WCK's body rack cultivation is hidden in the SLT beyond the triangle and the forward pressure.

The devil is in the big rack ---- just ask the question, can this body rack sustain in comming momentum unconditionally from different side? if not that is not the proper rack.

[nasmedicine]

rack is not power/momentum generator but to have an effective design the Rack and the momentum generator has to be support each others dynamically.


when the rack at rest and the rack in action or in dynamic, both has to be able to sustain itself.

a proper momentum generator is a generator which support the rack and wheel smoothly..

I agree. (if by rack you mean frame)

[nasmedicine]

The samething happened to me too , where my reply to a certain thread turned into a debate or argument too , some people are open minded and some people are close minded .

Anyway , I agree with YOuKNowWho on structure , also regardless of what martial arts you personally study yourself . You have an excercise to develop power , and do the exercise so that you can develop that power within you .

I really hate when that happens.

[Vajramusti]

The issue with Wing Chun is some think the triangle shape as structure.

however, the triangle shape is not the rack and it cannot be.

Why? because a triangle is strong only at the edge. while there are much bigger area which is totally flat in the side of the triangle. and if that part of the rack got hit, the structure got totally destroy. so it is trouble to go that way. the triangle type of rack is the best to be a water tower rack which stood still to hold water. it cannot be used while drive in jungle and roll over safely.
(hendrik)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not necessarily true. A triangle can be strengthened on all 3 sides. Example--the bows of Arctic icebreakers... and the geodesic dome is composed of triangles.

Agree that many wing chunners don't do that. But overgeneralizations can be inaccurate.

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

For me,


Structure is just the body rack similar to a body rack of a car.

So, analogy to Car, there are the truck rack, the four wheel drive rack, the two wheel drive rack, the racer car rack.....etc


rack is not power/momentum generator but to have an effective design the Rack and the momentum generator has to be support each others dynamically.


when the rack at rest and the rack in action or in dynamic, both has to be able to sustain itself.

a proper momentum generator is a generator which support the rack and wheel smoothly. IE a four wheel drive engine comes with a four wheel drive rack.





The issue with Wing Chun is some think the triangle shape as structure.

however, the triangle shape is not the rack and it cannot be.

Why? because a triangle is strong only at the edge. while there are much bigger area which is totally flat in the side of the triangle. and if that part of the rack got hit, the structure got totally destroy. so it is trouble to go that way. the triangle type of rack is the best to be a water tower rack which stood still to hold water. it cannot be used while drive in jungle and roll over safely.

also, it is not practical to keep adjust oneself to have those forward facing pressure thinking one always has an (triangle) edge towards others. take a look at the mmA real fight and see what is going on in the continuous dynamics. or even the BJJ take down, see what happen when those who has the forward facing pressure edge crash with the Bjj, the result is they got taken down.


Thus, the elbow to the center line, the forward pressure types of stuffs are great in theoritical world. in real life, it doesnt well work when facing multi-dimensional momentum impact.






WCK's body rack cultivation is hidden in the SLT beyond the triangle and the forward pressure.

The devil is in the big rack ---- just ask the question, can this body rack sustain in comming momentum unconditionally from different side? if not that is not the proper rack.

Hendrik, I think we think similarly but I think you're confusing an "active" as force against force when it's really what is a "cutting edge", at least the way we apply it. It's not theoretical either, it's literally the dynamics of any fighter who uses some kind of body structure. The majority just aren't aware of their body working that way.... we only have two arms and two legs....

[YouKnowWho]

I would comment but I don't want to talk about! lmfao

GH

"Structure" is something that either you have it or you don't have it. If you have it, there is no need to talk about it. If you don't have it, talk about it will not help.

It's very easy to test your structure. Besides those 2 methods that I have suggested, you can ask your opponent to swing a powerful right hook punch at your head. You spin your body to your left and use your right Tang Sau to block it. If your opponent's hook punch can

- knock your arm back and alter the distance between your arm and your body, you have poor structure.
- knock your body back but does not alter the distance between your arm and your body, you have average structure.
- not move your arm and your body. The distance between your arm and your body remain unchanged, you have excellent structure (along with good rooting too).

How to improve your structure? Just ask your opponent to throw hook punch at you 100 times daily. You use your whole body to block it (not just your arm). The moment that you think about your whole body and not only your arm, your structure is improved. It's easy to develop and it's easy to measure. That's why I have said, "Just do it and don't talk about it".

[nasmedicine]

"Structure" is something that either you have it or you don't have it. If you have it, there is no need to talk about it. If you don't have it, talk about it will not help.

I agree. .

[Hendrik]

"Structure" is something that either you have it or you don't have it. If you have it, there is no need to talk about it. If you don't have it, talk about it will not help.

It's very easy to test your structure. Besides those 2 methods that I have suggested, you can ask your opponent to swing a powerful right hook punch at your head. You spin your body to your left and use your right Tang Sau to block it. If your opponent's hook punch can

- knock your arm back and alter the distance between your arm and your body, you have poor structure.
- knock your body back but does not alter the distance between your arm and your body, you have average structure.
- not move your arm and your body. The distance between your arm and your body remain unchanged, you have excellent structure (along with good rooting too).

How to improve your structure? Just ask your opponent to throw hook punch at you 100 times daily. You use your whole body to block it (not just your arm). The moment that you think about your whole body and not only your arm, your structure is improved. It's easy to develop and it's easy to measure. That's why I have said, "Just do it and don't talk about it".

John,

Nope, it is not that way. the above have no kung fu at all.

For example,

if you dont have a four wheel drive body rack. disregard of how many time you bang the car in a mountain ride, it will not be able to take it.

if you have a four wheel drive body rack. the dis regard how many bang, it will comes out perfectly well.


Structure or Rack or 桩步 , 练拳架子 is a big part of Chinese Internal martial art. it is a well design product. and it is all scientific. nothing mysterious and it is brainless to learn.


如果遇到高手，让他连发三次手，你就学会了，以你们的桩步和身上的功夫，不发冷手决打不坏你们，要大胆实践才能学出真本领，可是不要打人，要让人服，不要让人怕。

这就是我在国术革命中主张的技击实验，所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里，不通过技击实验不能长真功夫，自己亲兄弟在 一起总要真拼，不要只在对打拳上下功夫，遇到外人他要拳打脚踢随便进，那你就无法应付了。练拳架子、站桩养内气，大气充满全身就不怕打了，通过松静站立就能获得轻灵，轻灵就能听劲，能听劲就则可以敌不动我不动，敌微动我先动，可以四两拨千斤，可 以发出至大至刚不可思议的爆炸力，意到气到，气到力就到，舍己从人，应付自如，对方就服了，用不着吃偏发劲 打人，你们姜师伯把我打不出去，因为他年老力衰，这样应付就是功夫，这比伸手将人打倒高出若干倍。我在19 3年拜杜心武老师，不是被他打倒才拜师，是他吸着我脱不出去我才心悦诚服的拜了老师，你们不要只练刚劲，要 多练柔劲，不要学我的发手打人，要学姜师伯的柔化，这才能提高。通过老师的教导，我们更进一步认识了老师的 武德玄上。

东北沦陷后，马老师不甘日寇凌辱，隧提倡强种救国之国术革命，在北京西城旧礼王府祠堂，组织华北国术研究会 ，延聘孙禄堂、尚云祥、刘采臣、王占恒、邓云峰，恒寿山等著名拳师为导师，吸收名大学爱国青年，共同学习， 研究强种救国之武术，因此获得中央国术馆长张之江之之支持，书赠“强种救国”四个大字。

何梅协定，蒋介石向日本人妥协，华北变色，马老师在北京不能容身，于是逃往济南，化名志然，住山东省国术馆 田镇峰（共产党员）家，助编《求是月刊》，并在山东省立高中教课，青年会教剑术，与田镇峰一起揭起国术革命 大旗，曾发表“告北平同伴书”， 当时响应者有杜心武、姜容樵、王子章、贾蕴高、孙伯英、宋铁林、郝家俊、李剑秋、李剑华、徐震、唐豪、于世 德等数百人



The above is the teaching of my sigung on IMA and what happen in early 1900. how they train, who train ( most of the big name in IMA are above) , and why is it Push hand. and how is the Qi part get into the picture.

So,This is the part of reality most never know about Chinese IMA. So it is naive to make conclusion on IMA without knowing what it is.

You know the best on the Sui Cio part from GM Chang Dong-Shen ; but you certainly dont know the part on Internal art: what is it and how is it which is in a different area.




I hope some one could help to translate this above. so one can see more clearly what is IMA instead of guessing and speculate.

[YouKnowWho]

Structure has nothing to do with "internal" or "external". You don't have to associate everything to "internal".

In the following clip, the bear was killed because the pole was set up in such a way that had good structure. The bear's body weight could not break that structure, instead, the pole went through the bear's body and kill it. If your body can be connected like that pole, your kick can drop your incoming opponent right below your knee.

Touch the ball of your foot on the wall, use your body structure to press your foot into the wall is the "only" way to develop your kick that can drop an incoming opponent. All the Qi stuff is not going to help you to develop that kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

[WC1277]

Structure has nothing to do with "internal" or "external". You don't have to associate everything to "internal".

In the following clip, the bear was killed because the pole was set up in such a way that had good structure. The bear's body weight could not break that structure, instead, the pole went through the bear's body and kill it. If your body can be connected like that pole, your kick can drop your incoming opponent right below your knee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

This is a discussion on if there is a way to define structure and apply it. Not the end result. Often times I wonder if you just post to have an overly simplistic opposing viewpoint. A, this is stupid, why are we talking about this, sort of attitude. If you don't want to discuss than just ignore this thread please. You don't just have a good structure, you develop it. Very few people just pick it up naturally.

However, I do I agree that this thread needs to stay far away from that internal/external crap. Just body mechanics please!

[YouKnowWho]

define structure.

The "structure" is "body unification" that you function your body as one single unit.

how it is applied and trained?

I have suggested 3 different ways to "train" structure.

1. Press your foot on the wall by using structure.
2. Use your whole body to pull a rubberband that tied on a tree.
3. Use your body structure Tang Sau to block incoming hook punch.

I have also suggested 3 different ways to "apply" structure.

1. Drop your opponent with strong body structure kick.
2. Pull your opponent off balance by using your structure.
3. Use your body structure Tang Sau to block incoming hook punch (same as training).

Are those what you are looking for? Or you just want to discuss on "theory" level?

[anerlich]

most of the big name in IMA are above

Were the other big names in IMA having a day off or something?

I have suggested 3 different ways to "develop" structure and "apply" it.

1. Drop your opponent with strong body structure kick.
2. Pull your opponent off balance by using your structure.
3. Use your body structure Tang Sau to block a incoming hook punch.

What more do you want?

Robert Chu's "structure tests"are along similar lines.

Personally, I think YKH's "overly simplistic" viewpoint is at least as valid as some of the overly complex and arcane offerings of some other posters.

Touch the ball of your foot on the wall, use your body structure to press your foot into the wall is the "only" way to develop your kick that can drop an incoming opponent.

Well, you could swing a heavy bag away from you and kick it as in swings back in. Or kick at a training partner holding a focus bag as they come in.

[YouKnowWho]

Well, you could swing a heavy bag away from you and kick it as in swings back in. Or kick at a training partner holding a focus bag as they come in.

Agree! Partner training and equipment training are the best way to develop your structure. It's very difficult to develop structure by "solo form" training.

I just hate to see people who spend 20 years in their "solo form" training and still fail on some simple structure testing. The earlier that we test on our structure against some "resistence", the more that we know that where we are, and whether we are on the right track or not.