What is Structure to you?

[k gledhill]

Structure development, Chi-sao, to me is a method to refine the 'bow' to my arms the 'eternal arrows' . If the bow isnt drawn in full 'load' to release the arrow then I dont have maximum available force, so Iwork on the bow )- , or vt structure in chi-sao. To develop a power source to release shots from, in a unified package, ie parry, punch, body all coming at once.
Iow I need powerful punches in close quarters to come from an energy source that isnt the 'arrows' or arms alone. I need momentum from a structured moving power source , driving into and from the ground up through the structured chain to my knuckles.
Newtons third law

Like the back cast of a fishing rod to harness the load potential into the forward cast, or drawing back on a rubber band...load is a word for stored potential energy.

For VT purposes the 'bow' or structure, is a crossbow capable of tremendous close quarter penetration with minimal drawing back , telegraphing, to 'reload' the arrow .
SLT , our feet positions support the hip , our knees, hips, spine, shoulders, elbows, wrists, are all aligned to harness the potential force of the bow )- structure.
With our body mass in motion, shifting, facing a target with unpredictable motion, and shooting back too , hopefully with less attention to alignment, balance, timing, etc...

The bow )- structure, also has to stay constantly loaded, forwards, moving back, at angles to counter attacks. Seung ma toi ma drills, with angling, shifting to attack, etc...We can drill specific areas of the stance, structure by isolating certain drills.
We can push pull, etc... but as tests, not to replicate as sumo in sparring Some confusion arises from students who think the drill test is the fight application.

Chum Kil teaches the bow ) structure, to now move in its intended vertical axis line. Also using sudden twisting torquing action to further add to the structures potential to unleash controlled , aligned force.

So a large part of the VT regimen is chi-sao drilling , not as a arrow feeling arrow exchange, but a partnership of bow meet bow, lets load the bows first with potential energy to send into the arms /arrows, with alignment. Lets help each other get good force exchange so when we go to fight we have this attribute that we developed together.


Chi-sao , done imo , correctly , becomes an intense exchange of force with two )-(
partners using each other to develop this lat sao chit chung of potential explosive forward arrow strikes with our arms.

We arent trying to use the tips of the arrows to play 'blocking feeling games' because we are not fighting in chi-sao, we are developing each others potential to have strong 'loaded' structures.
We, me, allow shots regularly to prove their force and trajectory, distance, allowing arrows to strike us regularly by taking our arms away so each partner can take a shot and develops mindless release of arrows from loaded structures. lat sao chit chung.

We use the chi-sao as a systematic progression of this simple idea.

Hitting a heavy bag also proves this same idea, impact. Kicking with the same ) driving hips behind the kick....

[Hendrik]

However, I do I agree that this thread needs to stay far away from that internal/external crap. Just body mechanics please!

Internal crap?

do you know body mechanics?

[Hendrik]

Structure has nothing to do with "internal" or "external". You don't have to associate everything to "internal".

In the following clip, the bear was killed because the pole was set up in such a way that had good structure. The bear's body weight could not break that structure, instead, the pole went through the bear's body and kill it. If your body can be connected like that pole, your kick can drop your incoming opponent right below your knee.

Touch the ball of your foot on the wall, use your body structure to press your foot into the wall is the "only" way to develop your kick that can drop an incoming opponent. All the Qi stuff is not going to help you to develop that kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

John,

Believe what ever you like.

For me you have just shown you are blind.

[GlennR]

John,

Believe what ever you like.

For me you have just shown you are blind.

Oh, and youd be an expert

[YouKnowWho]

John,

Believe what ever you like.

For me you have just shown you are blind.

I'm not blind. I'm just allergy to the word "internal".

[WC1277]

Internal crap?

do you know body mechanics?

Sorry hendrik, I wasn't really referring to you or your ideas as much as the pointless banter and back and forth of that other thread which that guy likes to partake in. No insult intended, I like your posts and always read them whether I agree with you or not

[Sean66]

Intention, what you think while executing a movement, effects the quality and dynamic of the movement. This can be said to be "internal" work, and it is not at all mystical or esoteric.
As I said before, professional athletes have known this for decades and often use imagery and meditation techniques in order to enhance their performances.

If your body can be connected like that pole, your kick can drop your incoming opponent right below your knee.

But how you connect your body like the pole is essential. The use of internal work (or somatic work, if you prefer that term) like imagery can help you in the process of "connecting your body", and can have real effects on the efficacy of your "connectedness".

There is a long tradition of this type of work in the West. In her book "The Thinking Body", published in 1937, Mabel Todd writes:

"Whatever the explanation of how emotional and bodily changes are linked, it is as profoundly true that we are as much affected in our thinking by our bodily attitudes as our bodily attitudes are affected in the reflection of our mental and bodily states"

Todd's research into the psychophysical nature of movement and the practical methods she experimented with, went on to influence people like Lulu Sweigard who developed the field of Ideokinesis, the use of imagined movement in changing the alignment of body structure.

In "Human movement potential: it's ideokinetic facilitation", Sweigard suggests that the
"all-important voluntary contribution from the central nervous system is the idea of movement. Concentration on the image of the movement will let the central nervous system choose the most efficient neuromuscular coordination for it's performance, namely innate reflexes and feedback mehanisms."
She also identified nine "lines of movement" that, in my opinion, are strikingly similar to some of the images used in CMA to produce specific alignment changes.

In addition to Ideokinesis, there are the somatic disciplines of Feldenkreis, Alexander Technique, Autogenic Training, Functional Relaxation, Body-Mind Centering....even the Pilates Method uses "internal" methods of imagery to influence body structure/alignment.
This is a rich heritage, and one worth studying IMHO.

[YouKnowWho]

But how you connect your body like the pole is essential. The use of internal work (or somatic work, if you prefer that term) like imagery can help you in the process of "connecting your body", and can have real effects on the efficacy of your "connectedness".

Could you give more detail on this please? How to develop your structure such that your body and your kicking leg are strongly connected by using your approach?

[Sean66]

First of all I'd like to be clear that I'm not advocating a purely "internal" approach, because I believe all human movement to be inextricably "internal" and "external" (see the above quote by Todd).

What I am saying, is that through the use of imagery techniques (visual imagery, direct and indirect imagery, tactile and kinesthetic imagery, proprioceptive imagery, etc.) we can influence the efficacy of our "wing chun structure".

Since all kicking methods in wing chun are derived from the basic position, yi ji kim yeung ma, the "connectedness" you talk about between the kicking leg and the body can be related to the way in which we develop and train structure in this fundamental stance.

But this still begs the question "what is structure, and how is wing chun structure unique?"

It seems to me that when we are talking about structure, we are really talking about the human body and how it is organized and aligned dynamically in space.

If we define structure like this, in a rather broad, general way, we can then talk about the specific qualities of wing chun structure and how they might differ, for example, from those found in taijiquan structure or bjj structure. We can identify and talk about the underlying movement principles.

Just off the top of my head, three body/movement principals that are important in your example of the kick could be said to be 1) Preservation of vertical alignment 2) co-ordination of upper and lower and 3) Frontal facing.
So, any images that can help your body to express these principals physically can help in the "connectedness" of your kick.

Take vertical alignment, probably the most important principal.
There are literally thousands of images that you might use to influence this. You can use kinesthetic imagery to imagine the three main masses of your body (head, torso and pelvis) to be aligned with the line of gravity. Or you can use visual imagery to imagine your head to be a helium ballon attached to a weight, maybe a bowling ball, located in your pelvis.

Kevin mentioned the image of a bow, which can give an extra tensile and directional quality. You can imagine your spine to be a bow, the top and bottom ends being the top of the head and the coccyx, respectively.

You have to try to find what type of imagery works for you, i.e. which type of imagery and what images help you to produce the desired effect in your movement/body.

[Graham H]

"

It's very easy to test your structure. Besides those 2 methods that I have suggested, you can ask your opponent to swing a powerful right hook punch at your head. You spin your body to your left and use your right Tang Sau to block it. If your opponent's hook punch can
.

How can I??? We don't use this in my lineage!!! I suppose I could try for a laugh but I'm not a dreamer and have no time for your stupid ideas!!!

GH

[Sean66]

I might add that any analysis of structure necessarily includes an anatomical/biomechanical approach. Indeed, understanding how the body works is a vital first step in changing and using your body in specific ways (like executing martial techniques/actions).

First, let's define structure to mean: The dynamic postural alignment of the body in it's kinesphere (the virtual space around the body, crossed by a vertical axis that corresponds to the direction of gravity, which serves to establish the directions in space toward which the different parts of the body will move).

Then we can propose a three-fold analysis of structure and how it's used in wing chun.
1) Biomechanical/kinesiological - a description of the anatomical/physical characteristics of the body organization.
2) Somatic - The inner intent. The thoughts, concepts and images, used to "motivate" movement and positions and how these influence the body.
3) Functional - Raison d'être of position and movement. Here we consider the strategic implications involved in combat, and how structure is to be used dynamically in relation to an adversary.

THe gained clarity can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students. We've got to de-mystify it!

[GlennR]

I might add that any analysis of structure necessarily includes an anatomical/biomechanical approach. Indeed, understanding how the body works is a vital first step in changing and using your body in specific ways (like executing martial techniques/actions).

First, let's define structure to mean: The dynamic postural alignment of the body in it's kinesphere (the virtual space around the body, crossed by a vertical axis that corresponds to the direction of gravity, which serves to establish the directions in space toward which the different parts of the body will move).

Then we can propose a three-fold analysis of structure and how it's used in wing chun.
1) Biomechanical/kinesiological - a description of the anatomical/physical characteristics of the body organization.
2) Somatic - The inner intent. The thoughts, concepts and images, used to "motivate" movement and positions and how these influence the body.
3) Functional - Raison d'être of position and movement. Here we consider the strategic implications involved in combat, and how structure is to be used dynamically in relation to an adversary.

THe gained clarity can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students. We've got to de-mystify it!

Really good post Sean.
The 3 points is a nice summary of structure and i think ill use it a reference tool... thanks.

[trubblman]

I might add that any analysis of structure necessarily includes an anatomical/biomechanical approach. Indeed, understanding how the body works is a vital first step in changing and using your body in specific ways (like executing martial techniques/actions).

First, let's define structure to mean: The dynamic postural alignment of the body in it's kinesphere (the virtual space around the body, crossed by a vertical axis that corresponds to the direction of gravity, which serves to establish the directions in space toward which the different parts of the body will move).

Then we can propose a three-fold analysis of structure and how it's used in wing chun.
1) Biomechanical/kinesiological - a description of the anatomical/physical characteristics of the body organization.
2) Somatic - The inner intent. The thoughts, concepts and images, used to "motivate" movement and positions and how these influence the body.
3) Functional - Raison d'être of position and movement. Here we consider the strategic implications involved in combat, and how structure is to be used dynamically in relation to an adversary.

THe gained clarity can not only help us in discussing structure, but in how we teach it to our students. We've got to de-mystify it!

I think you just made it more, not less mysterious.

[Hendrik]

I'm not blind. I'm just allergy to the word "internal".

You are not allergy, you are just thinking you know it all on what you dont know on TCMA striking art.

[Sean66]

Well, we've got to think about these things (like structure) and try to bring a bit of intellectual rigor to our definitions and descriptions.

After all, wing chun claims to be "the thinking man's style" and bases it's legitimacy not only on practical results but on scientific principles.

If we can't first identify the particular ways in which we want to organize our bodies and our movements in wing chun, and understand these physically (biomechanically); if we can't identify the general principles of movement that we use in wing chun; and if we can't clearly talk about the intentions behind our movements, then we will not have a basis for objective discussion.

It's no easy or simple task.....it's movement analysis. There are people that have made great progress in this field, like Rudolph Laban and more recently Rosemary Brandt, who has further developed his ideas, using them to de-mystify something as complex and codefied as classical ballet technique.

Practice hard and study deep, as the saying goes.