Kung fu fighting

[Taixuquan99]

Of course, first you have to decide what your goal with this "kung fu fighting" is.

Is it to create the best fighters?
Is it to put on the most exciting matches for the audience?
Is it to make the most money?

The goals will determine the rulesets.

How many full contact rulesets have you developed?

[David Jamieson]

Go to a judo tourney and what you will normally see is a 85% of the time spent jockeying for positional and grip dominance to set up the throws.

Actually, I disagree with this as I do attend judo tourneys having a family member who is ranked in Ontario and Quebec and goes t matches regularly.

Matches are often lightening fast with an entry a grab a throw and that's that. A couple of rounds of that an don with the next..

Judo tourneys move real quickly as do the judoka who participate. I''d say they spend 85% of their time waiting for their match. lol

Once they are there, it's a very quick gotcha after gotcha for the most part.

Hip toss rules the day at judo tourney by the way.

[Ray Pina]

I've heard plenty of experienced ground fighters say the same thing. I've also heard plenty of judo teachers say the same thing about watching two experienced judoka go at it. Far more interesting to experience than to watch.

Agreed. That's why I don't watch soccer, golf, baseball. But to tune into an MMA program and than complain about having to watch grappling Go to a tournament or seminar to watch two expert Judoka and complain about watching a grip battle and not many throws

There's a place for just punching: boxing.

[pateticorecords]

Good topic. Good question.

I think Kung FU could keep the gloves and adapt the rules. Lots of throws can be pulled off with boxing gloves. Or get amateur MMA gloves that are better padded and incorporate head gear, even closed head gear. Chest gear. Anything to get people playing more lively.

If you don't want to focus too much on ground, allow perhaps a 10 count of action after someone goes down. More points for takedowns. More points yet for takedown with follow through control. Control the position.

This would be a good start. After three years of this then a full on MMA-like contest could be held. No head gear. Continuous fighting for X minute rounds.

I am with Ray on this one.

Back in the 80s some full contact fighting allowed throws, single strikes while on the ground (to complete a technique), controlling opponents while on the ground, etc. the difference was that there was no ground and pound; normally in 3-5 minute continuous sparring (points calculated by techniques and strikes) setting using kendo/jkd gloves.

I'd say start trying it out again and adding some ground/submission both in a full contact setting and in others with lighter contact to get people acclimated or for those that like to do this but can't go full blast because of other reasons...

[Ray Pina]

I am NOT interested in creating another San Shou or San Da. This is only a kung fu style fighting competition. San Shou, MMA, BJJ all are good and already have their place in competition. Can we create a stand up style kung fu rule set that works well?

ginosifu

Here's the thing: Kung FU already has it's own tournament set up... point sparring. It is leaving its adherents stuck in 1980s "everybody feel good about themselves and nobody gets a bruise" mode. The last tournament I was at I saw this young bearded hippie type walk out with two huge trophies for his drunken form and chain whip set ... he kept his monk robe on too. He was real impressed with himself.... he also left before point sparring.

Now I didn't get a chance to even see his point sparring, because he boogied, but looking at him, his build, his composure... this guy has never trained hard. He was very soft.

If you want a way to really test your adherents' abilities it will ultimately look like San Shou or MMA.... and somebody will have to invest in mats. And you'll have to get permission from the state athletic board or commission, it will be sanctioned, have refs and medical personal.

Why does it have to be different? Those systems of competition work.

[faxiapreta]

And you'll have to get permission from the state athletic board or commission, it will be sanctioned, have refs and medical personal.

You don't need that if you hold smokers that charge no admission fees.

[David Jamieson]

Here's the thing: Kung FU already has it's own tournament set up... point sparring. It is leaving its adherents stuck in 1980s "everybody feel good about themselves and nobody gets a bruise" mode. The last tournament I was at I saw this young bearded hippie type walk out with two huge trophies for his drunken form and chain whip set ... he kept his monk robe on too. He was real impressed with himself.... he also left before point sparring.

Point sparring? that's right up there with musical kata karate tournaments. All the kung fu schools that are owned by friends of mine do san shou for their competitive aspect. I know a few school owners personally and a couple of more through the internet. None of them point spar outside of little kids programs if at all. Can't agree with your assessment on that front.

Now I didn't get a chance to even see his point sparring, because he boogied, but looking at him, his build, his composure... this guy has never trained hard. He was very soft.

You're being nothing but judgmental. YOu don't know the guy, saw him in passing and make all sorts of passive aggressive remarks about his accomplishment at a tournament? Wouldn't you be surprised if he could drop you like a bad habit?

If you want a way to really test your adherents' abilities it will ultimately look like San Shou or MMA.... and somebody will have to invest in mats. And you'll have to get permission from the state athletic board or commission, it will be sanctioned, have refs and medical personal.

Why does it have to be different? Those systems of competition work.

Why do they have to be different and define themselves as "x". Why should Traditional CHinese Martial Arts not have an option of creating a rule set that they wan for their sportive aspect of their art forms?

I think san shou is good, but like I said, I think the option to G&P should be there with break up rules for when the protracted man hugging stuff starts and I really don't care about bjj positioning that is going on, it is not an acceptable or enjoyable thing for me to watch. I like fast pace, hard hitting, all out fights that display skill. Not sloppy brawling, a couple of toe to toe slugs and then an extended hug followed by a choke. That is boring. It's the primary reason I simply stopped watching UFC. It became dull.

Other guys are free to like it all they want, I'd like to see something for Kung Fu specifically that goes beyond san shou which is to me a cheapafied version of muay Thai and most of the coaches of it look to Muay Thai for their training methods anyway.

[ginosifu]

Here's the thing: Kung FU already has it's own tournament set up... point sparring. It is leaving its adherents stuck in 1980s "everybody feel good about themselves and nobody gets a bruise" mode. The last tournament I was at I saw this young bearded hippie type walk out with two huge trophies for his drunken form and chain whip set ... he kept his monk robe on too. He was real impressed with himself.... he also left before point sparring.

Now I didn't get a chance to even see his point sparring, because he boogied, but looking at him, his build, his composure... this guy has never trained hard. He was very soft.

If you want a way to really test your adherents' abilities it will ultimately look like San Shou or MMA.... and somebody will have to invest in mats. And you'll have to get permission from the state athletic board or commission, it will be sanctioned, have refs and medical personal.

Why does it have to be different? Those systems of competition work.

First off, we don't point spar. Continuous sparring is what it is supposed to be. However, I agree with you on the fact that it is a joke nowadays. I was Judging a tournament where the Black Belt Division was a joke, the guy who took first had no clue how to really fight.

That's why this thread interests me. Why do we have to resort to San Shou (I fought in San Shou for many years). I like the idea of smaller mma style gloves, but would like to see limited clinching, limited or no ground fighting at all. San Shou limits the amount of grabbing techniques and takes away from many styles. Even though I like San Shou, I would like to see something different.

ginosifu

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You have to understand that San Shou tournaments and competitions are a minority when it comes to TCMA tournaments. For sparring competions it is normally point style or continuous sparring with very limited techniques allowed. You will find this much more than you will full contact San Shou. Also, I remember seeing a tournament in Wisconsin online that did Lei Tai matches with MMA style gloves and the face cages, (which suck) but that I felt was a step in the right direction.

That is Kuo Shou. They have been doing that since before MMA existed. I have always wondered why THAT format has not surpassed San Shou.

You could easily add a Pro version of that format where there are no face cages, they can operate under more open rules, and keep things as they are for the amateurs. It would make a nice progression from beginner to pro, to MMA big leagues for Kung Fu.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

many taijiquan people dont even make a proper fist. they make an "o". they should worry about that before trying to punch things, or putting on gloves.


even david ross says this, but the truth is taijiquan is mostly punching. as a branch of the changquan and hongquan systems it strictly teaches techniques by form and 90% of techniques are punching and kicking

I see more take down in Taiji, than striking. Just look at the forms, it is like 80% take downs. Taiji is internal Shui Jaio.

[MightyB]

Go to a tournament or seminar to watch two expert Judoka and complain about watching a grip battle and not many throws

if this happens at a Judo tourney

Referee, "Shido... stalling - one more and you're disqualified".
------
Then at a

BJJ tourney after 4 minutes of a lot of nothing - what makes it worse is that a guard pull initiated the ground fight.

Referee yawns (muttering to himself) "hope no one saw me yawning."


Just messing with ya Ray - but like others have said, playing the games are a lot more fun than watching.

But I'd limit groundfighting in a kung fu tourney. It has its place, just not on the lei tai.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

First off, we don't point spar. Continuous sparring is what it is supposed to be. However, I agree with you on the fact that it is a joke nowadays. I was Judging a tournament where the Black Belt Division was a joke, the guy who took first had no clue how to really fight.

That's why this thread interests me. Why do we have to resort to San Shou (I fought in San Shou for many years). I like the idea of smaller mma style gloves, but would like to see limited clinching, limited or no ground fighting at all. San Shou limits the amount of grabbing techniques and takes away from many styles. Even though I like San Shou, I would like to see something different.

ginosifu

Gino,

Have you and John ever considered changing the rules at your tournament and doing something like this? That could be a start in the right direction, at least in Ohio and the surrounding areas.

I always thought a good ruleset would be this:

Two 2 minute rounds. If there is a tie after these 2 rounds a 1 minute final round that must have a winner.

Amateurs wear USA boxing approved head gear, training style MMA gloves such as these:http://www.combatsports.com/Combat-S...ductinfo/TG+4/ , shin guards and of course groin protection and mouth piece. The open hand gloves would allow for open hand strikes (palm, Leopard Paw, Mantis wrist, Dragon's Head, ect.) and for grabs and grips that boxing gloves limit.

As for the grappling, all throws and takedowns such as in San Shou and maybe 30 seconds on the ground to pull off a submission, than the fight stands back up. This is very similiar to ISJA rules Mighty B was talking about.

For pros you could do three 3 minute rounds, no head gear, and 1 minute on the ground before the fighters stand back up, or keep it the same.

The other option is to make classes such as beginner, intermediate, and advanced and tweak the rules for each division as it would seem fit. Weight classes of course would be in effect as well, but you could get away with about 4 weight classes than an open weight division for all the big boys.

If I were to hold a Kung Fu tournament and get it sanctioned and approved this is how mine would run. Of course getting anything other than the Toughman going in West Virginia is like pulling teeth!

[ginosifu]

Gino,

Have you and John ever considered changing the rules at your tournament and doing something like this? That could be a start in the right direction, at least in Ohio and the surrounding areas.

I always thought a good ruleset would be this:

Two 2 minute rounds. If there is a tie after these 2 rounds a 1 minute final round that must have a winner.

Amateurs wear USA boxing approved head gear, training style MMA gloves such as these:http://www.combatsports.com/Combat-S...ductinfo/TG+4/ , shin guards and of course groin protection and mouth piece. The open hand gloves would allow for open hand strikes (palm, Leopard Paw, Mantis wrist, Dragon's Head, ect.) and for grabs and grips that boxing gloves limit.

As for the grappling, all throws and takedowns such as in San Shou and maybe 30 seconds on the ground to pull off a submission, than the fight stands back up. This is very similiar to ISJA rules Mighty B was talking about.

For pros you could do three 3 minute rounds, no head gear, and 1 minute on the ground before the fighters stand back up, or keep it the same.

The other option is to make classes such as beginner, intermediate, and advanced and tweak the rules for each division as it would seem fit. Weight classes of course would be in effect as well, but you could get away with about 4 weight classes than an open weight division for all the big boys.

If I were to hold a Kung Fu tournament and get it sanctioned and approved this is how mine would run. Of course getting anything other than the Toughman going in West Virginia is like pulling teeth!

I will run this by him, however we have been battling the state with regulations and liability. the Ohio Athletic Commission is trying to take over all MA and force everyone to use their rule sets and use their Doctors and their Insurance etc.
ginosifu

ps. I like your rule set, It allows for kung fu to be kung fu

[MightyB]

Gino,

Have you and John ever considered changing the rules at your tournament and doing something like this? That could be a start in the right direction, at least in Ohio and the surrounding areas.

I always thought a good ruleset would be this:

Two 2 minute rounds. If there is a tie after these 2 rounds a 1 minute final round that must have a winner.

Amateurs wear USA boxing approved head gear, training style MMA gloves such as these:http://www.combatsports.com/Combat-S...ductinfo/TG+4/ , shin guards and of course groin protection and mouth piece. The open hand gloves would allow for open hand strikes (palm, Leopard Paw, Mantis wrist, Dragon's Head, ect.) and for grabs and grips that boxing gloves limit.

As for the grappling, all throws and takedowns such as in San Shou and maybe 30 seconds on the ground to pull off a submission, than the fight stands back up. This is very similiar to ISJA rules Mighty B was talking about.

For pros you could do three 3 minute rounds, no head gear, and 1 minute on the ground before the fighters stand back up, or keep it the same.

The other option is to make classes such as beginner, intermediate, and advanced and tweak the rules for each division as it would seem fit. Weight classes of course would be in effect as well, but you could get away with about 4 weight classes than an open weight division for all the big boys.

If I were to hold a Kung Fu tournament and get it sanctioned and approved this is how mine would run. Of course getting anything other than the Toughman going in West Virginia is like pulling teeth!

Good rule set. That'll do. Consensus reached - meeting adjourned. Good job gentlemen. Now let's settle this budget crisis...

[YouKnowWho]

Actually a time limited rule forces better action. The best, most-skilled people will rise to the top.

Agree! This will encourage people to

- move in,
- apply their throw, if fail,
- move back, and
- wait for next chance.

This is the "fast hands wrestling" spirit.

Most wrestler will develop bad habit by getting into a clinching situation and wait to hope their opponent can make certain mistake so they can take advantage on. This kind of wrestling match is boring to watch. In traditional Chinese wrestling rule, the referee will stop both fighters and start them all over again.

Some new Chinese wrestling rules will give 3 points for an overhead throw, 2 point for a throw remain standing, and 1 point for a throw that lose balance. The new rule also encourage better skill development.

Since pull guard will make your body to touch to the ground and lose that round first, both pull guard and jump guard are not encouraged in the Chinese wrestling rules. This will force people to develop their throwing skill instead of taking the short cut.