Kung fu fighting

[Crosshandz]

Cheesy topic for a thread but it accurately describes my subject matter. Seriously speaking I was wondering what board members thought about the current rules of Kung fu competition fighting and whether or not they should be revised, for instance, along the lines of the unified rules of mixed martial arts?

Do board members think there is a disjunction between the way we train to fight in Chinese martial arts and the rules of competition? For example, in training many Chinese martial arts systems employ a range of techniques involving throws and projections but all the competition fighting I've seen uses kickboxing gloves. This immediately nullifies the ability of a Kung fu student to actually attempt to pull many of these techniques off in live combat.

By using the unified rules of MMA and ditching the big gloves for MMA gloves I think we would create a more beneficial environment in which to develop the fighting skills of Kung fu people. Just wanted to know what other people thought?

[bawang]

mma should have mma kata. then it becomes legitma.

[Crosshandz]

mma should have mma kata. then it becomes legitma.

I see what you did there.

But no I'm not saying Kung fu competitions are not legit because they're not MMA. I'm saying that there are lots of skills in Kung fu made difficult to impossible to test out in competition because of the rules.

Take a throw heavy style like Taijiquan. There are many moves in the Taijiquan techniques gallery that are just unfeasible to perform if you wear kickboxing gloves. This robs a serious Taijiquan student the chance to test how to apply these things in a real life situation. It would be like asking a wrestler to fight under K-1 rules.

[bawang]

Take a throw heavy style like Taijiquan.

lol noe
fgdfgdg

There are many moves in the Taijiquan techniques gallery that are just unfeasible to perform if you wear kickboxing gloves.

the gloves hinder you from gently carressing your opponents forearm

[SPJ]

rules are actually more or less the same.

1. point sparring, you punch and kick and get points

just like karate/kumite or tae kwan do.

KO is allowed.

somehow, the wu lin da hui in PR china, there is no head shot. so KO is not possible.

there is a heavy chest protector under the garment,

so the rule sets favor throw. since no KO.

2. full contact

grappling and throws are possible.

currently

there are san shou rules and kuo shu rules in US.

I think GLW knows more.

---

[Crosshandz]

rules are actually more or less the same.

1. point sparring, you punch and kick and get points

just like karate/kumite or tae kwan do.

KO is allowed.

somehow, the wu lin da hui in PR china, there is no head shot. so KO is not possible.

there is a heavy chest protector under the garment,

so the rule sets favor throw. since no KO.

2. full contact

grappling and throws are possible.

currently

there are san shou rules and kuo shu rules in US.

I think GLW knows more.

---

I'm not in the US so I can't really make an informed comment on what goes on there. From what I have seen of grappling in full contact Kung fu tournaments it would be impossible to repeat what Su Dong Chen shows here with kickboxing gloves on.

Its probably generally unfeasible to repeat much of what Su Dong Chen does but you get my point. :P

[David Jamieson]

Tai chi chuan needs a serious revisit to take it out of the hands of soft heads and give it back to wrestlers and takedown artists as intended.

right now it's fluff. It's been ruined by years of wimps, weakness.

A martial art usurped by the meek and made weaker.

It's a weird thing.

Mind you, original Chen style looks like shaolin a lot.

qigong for health shouldn't be a ripped off martial art such as taichi has become.

[SPJ]

Tai chi chuan needs a serious revisit to take it out of the hands of soft heads and give it back to wrestlers and takedown artists as intended.

right now it's fluff. It's been ruined by years of wimps, weakness.

A martial art usurped by the meek and made weaker.

It's a weird thing.

Mind you, original Chen style looks like shaolin a lot.

qigong for health shouldn't be a ripped off martial art such as taichi has become.

some blamed yang cheng fu

or even yang lu chan.

[YouKnowWho]

Take a throw heavy style like Taijiquan. There are many moves in the Taijiquan techniques gallery that are just unfeasible to perform if you wear kickboxing gloves.

When you have gloves on, you cannot pull your opponent. Your monster grip will become useless. That's definite a draw back.

When you have glove on, insted of using your hand to grab, you will use your arm to wrap. When you have developed the arm wrapping ability, you will find out that without gloves, your skill can be performed much better.

To change from non-gloves environment to gloves environment, it's like to change from gi environment to no-gi environment, it will take some time to feel comfortable wth. After you have pasted that period of time, you will get benefit for the rest of your life. The reason is simple. If you can fight with only 70% of your ability with gloves, you will be able to fight 100% of your ability without gloves.

[Crosshandz]

When you have gloves on, you cannot pull your opponent. Your monster grip will become useless. That's definite a draw back.

When you have glove on, insted of using your hand to grab, you will use your arm to wrap. When you have developed the arm wrapping ability, you will find out that without gloves, your skill can be performed much better.

To change from non-gloves environment to gloves environment, it's like to change from gi environment to no-gi environment, it will take some time to feel comfortable wth. After you have pasted that period of time, you will get benefit for the rest of your life. The reason is simple. If you can fight with only 70% of your ability with gloves, you will be able to fight 100% of your ability without gloves.

I see your point and given your ample experience in throwing I won't dispute the logic there. However, whilst I agree that you can create workarounds to pull of many of the techniques the size of the glove itself would seem to become an obstacle when trying to do certain things and then there are techniques such as this Luo Dexiu hip toss that would remain unfeasible. Yes, hip toss can still be done with arms around the body but that position that he uses it from is effectively a no-go area cos of the glove.

[faxiapreta]

There's this thing called MMA.

It's where you can go to fight with limited rules and limited safety equipment and with gloves that let you grab as well or even better than without gloves.

[YouKnowWho]

this Luo Dexiu hip toss

The move "手别(Shou Bie) - hand block" should have no problem to perform with gloves if you can obtain that "leading arm control" contact point. With gloves on, the proper contact point is much harder to obtain.

[David Jamieson]

Cheesy topic for a thread but it accurately describes my subject matter. Seriously speaking I was wondering what board members thought about the current rules of Kung fu competition fighting and whether or not they should be revised, for instance, along the lines of the unified rules of mixed martial arts?

Do board members think there is a disjunction between the way we train to fight in Chinese martial arts and the rules of competition? For example, in training many Chinese martial arts systems employ a range of techniques involving throws and projections but all the competition fighting I've seen uses kickboxing gloves. This immediately nullifies the ability of a Kung fu student to actually attempt to pull many of these techniques off in live combat.

By using the unified rules of MMA and ditching the big gloves for MMA gloves I think we would create a more beneficial environment in which to develop the fighting skills of Kung fu people. Just wanted to know what other people thought?

I hear this.

San Shou is good, but it could be better.

UFC can get real boring real fast when it's just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.

It's like when someone says do you like watching golf?
I say, no, but I enjoy playing it.

UFC style mma is like this. All too often teh fights are too short or too protracted with the man hugs. This means for every 20 fights, you get to see 1 that's actually not a bad fight.

I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.

[Ray Pina]

UFC can get real boring real fast when it's just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.

We mock what we don't understand.

I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.

I prefer no time limit. When I work hard to get a guy down and I have great position I like to milk it, make the other person suffer, carry my weight... I fight in venues with 5 minute rounds. Broken up in three rounds. Sucks to end a round in great position.... this is what we got.

There's nothing more beautiful than an uninterrupted fight. There's wonderful drama involved. There is so much subtle battling going on for position in the ground game. If you knew what to look for its just as rewarding as seeing a nice strike. In some ways a great strike requires an element of luck (guard down, run into, etc.) Setting up an escape/reversal is beautiful. It's beautiful to finish.

[MightyB]

Why try and reinvent the wheel?

Use the rules these guys use and go to their tournaments.