Kung fu fighting

[David Jamieson]

If you are a Taiji guy, it will be interest to try all your moves with 16 oz boxing gloves on.

In 1982 I was introduced to a fellow who taught "combat tai chi"

It was inessence a remodeling of the way tai chi was used.

full contact, full force pulls, throws, pushes, grabs, takedowns...pretty cool stuff.

since then, i don't give credo to tai chi as health exercises much, but i can respect it as any exercise is better than none and I see improvement in mobility with those seniors I know who have undertaken practice of it.

qigong is as good as tai chi in that respect.

[bawang]

many taijiquan people dont even make a proper fist. they make an "o". they should worry about that before trying to punch things, or putting on gloves.

full contact, full force pulls, throws, pushes, grabs, takedowns...pretty cool stuff.

even david ross says this, but the truth is taijiquan is mostly punching. as a branch of the changquan and hongquan systems it strictly teaches techniques by form and 90% of techniques are punching and kicking

[David Jamieson]

many taijiquan people dont even make a proper fist. they make an "o". they should worry about that before trying to punch things, or putting on gloves.

In all fairness, there is little in the way of fist strikes and furthermore, there is in most every tai chi school NO cross training at all!

No mitts, no bags, no application training, no sparring full on or otherwise, no wrestling nothing, just the set, whichever set is being taught.

It is the saddest state of all the traditional chinese martial arts.

Like a eunuch at a nymphomaniac convention.

[Crosshandz]

When you have gloves on, you cannot pull your opponent. Your monster grip will become useless. That's definite a draw back.

When you have glove on, insted of using your hand to grab, you will use your arm to wrap. When you have developed the arm wrapping ability, you will find out that without gloves, your skill can be performed much better.

To change from non-gloves environment to gloves environment, it's like to change from gi environment to no-gi environment, it will take some time to feel comfortable wth. After you have pasted that period of time, you will get benefit for the rest of your life. The reason is simple. If you can fight with only 70% of your ability with gloves, you will be able to fight 100% of your ability without gloves.

I see your point and given your ample experience in throwing I won't dispute the logic there. However, whilst I agree that you can create workarounds to pull of many of the techniques the size of the glove itself would seem to become an obstacle when trying to do certain things and then there are techniques such as this Luo Dexiu hip toss that would remain unfeasible. Yes, hip toss can still be done with arms around the body but that position that he uses it from is effectively a no-go area cos of the glove.

[faxiapreta]

There's this thing called MMA.

It's where you can go to fight with limited rules and limited safety equipment and with gloves that let you grab as well or even better than without gloves.

[Crosshandz]

If you are a Taiji guy, it will be interest to try all your moves with 16 oz boxing gloves on. Here is 2 clips that throws are perform with gloves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXVXU4as828

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hblrR6vU6p4

Cool techniques. I'm not a Taiji guy I was just using Taiji as an example. My own practice is Songshan Shaolin which does contain a lot of Taiji apps though. I do understand there are ways to do the techniques with gloves on but I just think it'd be a better aid to training to use the MMA glove and MMA rules.

[bawang]

mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.

[Crosshandz]

mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.

Gotta love it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's this thing called MMA.

It's where you can go to fight with limited rules and limited safety equipment and with gloves that let you grab as well or even better than without gloves.

Many TMA dislike the MMA environment so for them to have one of their own is not a bad thing.

[bawang]

Many TMA dislike the MMA environment so for them to have one of their own is not a bad thing.

TMA people also havent tried to create authentic traditional lei tai. theres nothing wrong with the mma environment.

kung fu should learn valuable wisdom from vale tudo

[YouKnowWho]

this Luo Dexiu hip toss

The move "手别(Shou Bie) - hand block" should have no problem to perform with gloves if you can obtain that "leading arm control" contact point. With gloves on, the proper contact point is much harder to obtain.

[David Jamieson]

Vale Tudo?

Where does that happen nowadays?

Certainly not in north america.

As for MMA, that's mma, it's not the same as tcma training.

there's room for adoption from mma I agree, but tryin to fit tcma into that mold is a waste of effort time and energy.

they are two completely different focuses.

an apple is a fruit
an orange is a fruit
they are both tasty tasty fruit.
they are completely different despite the same idea that they are fruit.

The only similarity in mma and any other martial art is that it is martial.

Even here they take a lot of the danger out of MT for instance. No elbows. Know why? Too dangerous!

time limits, weight restrictions etc are all there to ensure less injury occurs. It is fairly safe over all.

there is a component of guys who seem to think that they being punched in the face automatically has given them some kind of martial wisdom. And it has! But there are a lot of deluded egotists out there who will eventually come to know the error of their ways.

Til then, it's only my problem when they break the Ts&Cs here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TMA people also havent tried to create authentic traditional lei tai. theres nothing wrong with the mma environment.

kung fu should learn valuable wisdom from vale tudo

Well. many TMA have the view of the MMA environment that they get from the TV or from MMA oriented sites that, well, suck.
Many TMA HERE for example get their view of the MMA environment from the likes of people here that advocate MMA over TMA.
Enough said eh?

[YouKnowWho]

mma gloves is great, but i like watching bare hand vale tudo because it cuts the face and makes a lot of blood.

In most of the San Shou fight, the MMA gloves is still considered not safe enough. In a state such as Texas that all full contact fight has to be controlled by the boxing organization, the 16 oz boxing gloves are required.

[Ray Pina]

Cheesy topic for a thread but it accurately describes my subject matter. Seriously speaking I was wondering what board members thought about the current rules of Kung fu competition fighting and whether or not they should be revised, for instance, along the lines of the unified rules of mixed martial arts?

Do board members think there is a disjunction between the way we train to fight in Chinese martial arts and the rules of competition? For example, in training many Chinese martial arts systems employ a range of techniques involving throws and projections but all the competition fighting I've seen uses kickboxing gloves. This immediately nullifies the ability of a Kung fu student to actually attempt to pull many of these techniques off in live combat.

By using the unified rules of MMA and ditching the big gloves for MMA gloves I think we would create a more beneficial environment in which to develop the fighting skills of Kung fu people. Just wanted to know what other people thought?

Good topic. Good question.

I think Kung FU could keep the gloves and adapt the rules. Lots of throws can be pulled off with boxing gloves. Or get amateur MMA gloves that are better padded and incorporate head gear, even closed head gear. Chest gear. Anything to get people playing more lively.

If you don't want to focus too much on ground, allow perhaps a 10 count of action after someone goes down. More points for takedowns. More points yet for takedown with follow through control. Control the position.

This would be a good start. After three years of this then a full on MMA-like contest could be held. No head gear. Continuous fighting for X minute rounds.